Saturday, January 18, 2020

Natzsofast, Tam



According to her blog, the above is a dumb holster idea.
"Basically, unless you're wearing a plate carrier or LBV or something that interferes with a normal belt mount, you should probably leave the drop-legs to Hollywood space pirates and B&W cowboys."

Oh really?

Point of order.

Look, I can give you eleventy times and places where a drop leg of any type is weapons-grade dumb (self-castration optional); BTDT and got the t-shirt. But I can also think of several situations where it's pretty wizard-level. And let's face it, not everyone is a Travis Haley gunslinger, nor trying to be one.

What about for someone who's not trying to look tacticool at all, but maybe earning a living driving a truck all day, or a cabbie, an Uber/Lyft driver, or a pizza delivery guy?
(Not in NYFC or similar anti-gun locales, but in places where the Constitution still applies most days.)

I would normally defer to Tam's judgment on this sort of thing, if only because she's certainly shot more last year than I did last decade.

But I think the above examples are an example of not thinking this all the way through, especially for Joe Average just earning a paycheck.

Sit in a car, a delivery van, or a semi rig cab, and show me your IWB or appendix-carry draw, against, say, a robber or carjacker.With your seatbelts on (in observance of the law, natch), and maybe wearing a jacket, just to make it interesting for you.
I'll wait.
(We won't even talk about where that IWB is digging into you all shift, or where your appendix carry muzzle is pointed, sitting in a vehicle seat. And to be sporting, we won't stipulate that one might be a bit on the portly side.)

Now, sit in a car seat, same conditions, and tell me where your hand falls on your upper leg:
unless you've got gorilla-length arms (which you'd need to get to any ankle rig), that'd be right where this holster sits. Handy. Readily available. Not pointed at your junk.
Five stars.

I'm not saying it'd be a good choice for CCW (obviously), let alone a trip to the brew tappery for a bite and pint, or window shopping at the local mall. And anyone who's ever tried running with a drop leg on knows when it's a dumb idea (and they probably speak in a voice an octave or two higher than normal).
But for a guy sitting in a car or truck seat, for hours or all day long?
Pretty close to ideal.

This is what happens to folks who've never sat in a Humvee or Jeep with a sidearm strapped on all day long (let alone a Prius or a Freightliner).
They're missing a thing or two because they never experienced it.

It's the same reason pilots and AFV crewmembers have been partial to their shoulder holsters. Because it works for their specifics.

I'm thinking that "Dumb Holster Idea" pronouncement might want just a smidgen of walking back. Maybe with just a dash more of humility.

"Purpose-specific Holster Idea"? That I could see.

But one idea does not fit all.

43 comments:

Tenringzen said...

Well stated. Your observations apply to tractors as well.

jim rock said...

Warrior Poet has a utube vid on AIWB draw while belted in a car.
He's a fit guy though.

Aesop said...

It may be do-able, with a lot of practice, but it won't be easy, or pretty.
Drop leg, OTOH, is stupid simple, and pretty natural.

Anonymous said...

Instead, consider the Hill People Gear Kit Bag.

JPM in SWF said...

"Basically, unless you're wearing a plate carrier or LBV or something that interferes with a normal belt mount..."
To be fair: Every-time I wear a seay-belt it interferes with a normal belt mount.

Anonymous said...

for vehicles there are many options to mount a handgun that are easily accessible and fast. when one dismounts the vehicle the drop leg is not concealed. I do not IWB carry in the vehicle for the reasons you mention. One upside to shoulder holsters is they can be concealed when dismounting the vehicle,(regardless of the season)and they are reasonably fast.

Reltney McFee said...

I have a (layman, not tactcool, scant gunschool, no alumnus of the military) opinion.

I carry IWB, at around 3 o clock. When I seat myself, I buckle up, sweep aside my coat, fleece, and cover garment (Yep, in Da Nawth Country, f'r sure!), and, while driving, access is a sweep-and-grasp away.

When I dismount, re arrange coats (etcetera), and the Gun Burkha Effect is again in play.

With God's Blessing, I will never see how well it works.

But is seems superior to leaving my sidearm at home.

I cannot say about the drop leg, although it seems to me to be kind of indiscreet.

As, you Mr. Aesop, have noted many times, YMMV.

Anonymous said...

I agree with the lady. There are way better options for holstering in a vehicle that are dirt cheap.

Matt G said...

Speaking as someone who carries a pistol every day, and who knows from personal observation that Tamara does, as well, I will say that I agree with her, and do not see any need to walk back her statement.
She also cited an expert, who in his video explained in some detail how and why the holster in the video is suboptimal.

We have experience in wearing guns on our bodies, day-in and day-out, over decades. Can you share yours?
What kind of pistol are you carrying?
What kind of holster do you carry in?
For how long did you wear a dropleg holster?
For how long did you wear an IWB?
Did you ever wear OWB for any duration? How long?

The Gray Man said...

“She has never sat in a MRAP with a sidearm strapped on for any significant length of time” is the first thing I thought.

I still have my DLH from those days.

The Gray Man said...

This.

Ned2 said...

Shoulder holster would be preferable while driving.
Having a dedicated truck gun(s) is also worth thinking about.

Anonymous said...

@The Gray Man

Was she talking about riding in an MRAP? No.

The Freeholder said...

As with Ned2, I like a shoulder holster if I'm driving a lot. Unfortunately they aren't available for most of my carry guns, because lasers.

Anonymous said...

you've got a beretta 92 holstered with the hammer back...

Gunshop Worker said...

I knew Tamara when she lived in Knoxville. She is a RKI but if she knew 1/10 the stuff she thinks she knows, she'd be the smartest person on Earth.

Roger said...

With respect to all. If one is a civilian concealed carrier as I am 20 years now, (God bless the Gunshine state of Florida) The idea of a drop leg holster is ludicrous.
Problem while driving? Whatcha gonna do when you stop for gas or a bladder break? Or how about getting something to eat?
Clearly understood, when one is a military or police fully garbed out with vest, taser, mags, radios, etc etc OK, drop leg it. Us poor civilians with idiots watching our every move, with cell phones in their sweaty palms and fear in their hearts, keep that gat hidden.

Badger said...

Reminds me of something Herschel said the other day in an article over at his place about people who want to tell other people that their approach is the only way & for all occasions.

daniel_day said...

Gray Man: Please explain DLH. Acronymfinder and Google are no help.

daniel_day said...

DLH = Drop leg holster. Never mind.

Mike said...

It's not really hard to draw from IWB in a vehicle. You just have to practice clearing the seatbelt properly, first. Then again, a ton of people don't even practice their standing-up draw enough, so maybe you're talking to those bozos?

Holster and pistol digging into you? Nah. I've got some Dunlop going on, and a bad disc in the bottom of my back so if I don't sit straight, I pay with sciatic nerve pain. I've done over 20 hours in the seat on a cross country drive with a P226 with attached light IWB at 4 o'clock, no problem. Even with that rather large pistol sitting there, it's mildly irritating for maybe the first five minutes of driving.

And not only is that particular drop leg a dumb idea on its face, it's extra dumb because the cheapest version of it costs over $300. With options, it can go for more than $600! You have any idea how many good, functional, daily-usable holsters I can buy for that kind of money!?

Anonymous said...

Ironically when I regularly used a drop-leg; I had a second holster on my plate-carrier for vehicle use, especially in soft-skins like Land Cruisers or Land Rovers. I would move my sidearm from the drop-leg into the plate carrier before getting into the vehicle and swap out upon alighting. Worked for me back when but YMMV.
Boat Guy

Anonymous said...

And for MattG; I carry everyday as well. Never appendix. Some IWB but on the hip. I always wear a seatbelt and don't have any trouble with it. If I were going to be mounted ( vehicle or horseback) for most of the time I prefer crossdraw.
Boat Guy

Anonymous said...

A seat belt extension is a handy bit of kit when you are required to wear a sidearm at the waist/belt level. Every one of us uniformed cops in a SoCal department I retired from had them in our squad cars. It mainly makes for faster unassing the vehicle in a hurry as the seat belt release is no longer buried under the holster.
Nowadays I have a holster fastened to the dash metal in my 1980 truck.

Cynyr said...

"Hollywood space pirates"
I aim to misbehave!

Anonymous said...

I find it easier to reach the piece in the center console or door pocket when I'm driving.
When I get out, it goes OWB @ 4 o'clock.
_revjen45

Aesop said...

One and all,

While price is absolutely a consideration for most people, that point was none of Tam's argument against the holster singled out.
Her argument was "It's dumb".
I've shown it's not so dumb.

Are there many other ways to go about wearing a shooting iron?
Absolutely.
That's my exact point.

There are plenty of ways to skin that cat.
It's not unsafe in the holster she singled out.
It's one helluva lot more comfortable and handier with the DLH, while simultaneously being a lot less concealable if you get out of the vehicle.
TANSTAAFL.
Some people, which examples you read, don't get out of their vehicle for hours and hours on end. So an IWB or appendix carry for them would be suboptimal compared to that DLH, which, inside a cab or car seat, is a lot more concealed than on the dashboard, and more readily available than inside a console.
Once again, TANSTAAFL.

There are always trade-offs.

If you claim something is dumb, which ain't necessarily so, your argument fails.
If she had instead, exactly as suggested, noted there are better ways for some people to do that, and that that holster wasn't the best choice in some cases, well and good.
But that's not what was attempted.

But when you play king of the hill with your argument, and I push you off with one finger, you've just lost.

And when "That's a dumb idea" is shorthand for "I don't like vanilla ice cream, and anyone who does like it is a poopy-head", you have robbed the English language of its inherent range of expression, wasted your breath, and undone your own argument.

And exactly like concealed carry, the first rule of writing to inform is not to shoot yourself in the foot.

QED

Aesop said...

@Matt G,

Your argument is nonsensical, and the information requested is valueless.

I might have never carried a gun in my entire life, and it wouldn't change my argument, nor invalidate it. Steven Hawking, in his wheelchair, could have said the same thing I said, and been equally right. Stevie Wonder, blind his whole life, would be just as correct in saying it.

Either a drop leg holster has uses to recommend it (which uses I already laid out) or it does not because it is a stupid idea.
I noted those uses, so it's therefore not a stupid idea.

Anything that doesn't address those exact points on the merits is simply gainsaying.
That's a fallacy, which earns you a loss of down and a ten yard penalty.

And if my answers to your questions demonstrated I had more time doing all of the above than you and Tam combined, by even five minutes, do you imagine my assertion would suddenly magically be more factually correct?
Or that the reverse is somehow true if I come up short by five minutes?

You're trying to shoehorn an Appeal To (Imaginary) Authority (another fallacy; you could look it up) into deciding a simple true/false statement, to wit:
A drop leg holster is a dumb idea.

I've demonstrated that for some times and places, that statement is false.
Period.

That doesn't change because you carried a pistol "day in and day out".
For a week, for a month, for a decade, or even on your thirty-year foot march safari from Cairo to Capetown.
It doesn't change if you're the Pope or the president.
It doesn't change if you have three Ph.Ds, and designed weapons at the right hand of John Moses byGod Browning.

A false assertion is always false, no matter who makes it.
Toddle off and suck on that logical inevitability.

If this obvious reality is too obscure for you, you aren't tall enough for this discussion.

I analyze far more complex questions for a living, I debate for a hobby, and I buy electrons on the internet by the mole; did you really think you were going to sneak that polka-dotted elephant of an argument in here under a washcloth, and I wouldn't notice?

The Freeholder said...

Gunshop Worker, what is an RKI?

Anonymous said...

Ok city folks, fight and squabble about some more little things that don't matter. I live out in the sticks. We drive four wheel drive trucks, ATV's, side by sides, tractors and a lot of others. I own a drop leg. Hell, I've worn a belt holster with it because I was shooting two different glocks at the time and wanted a comfy way to carry both out on the back 40. Geeze people! What works for some doesn't work for all. I think Aesop made valid points concerning this. I read View from the porch from time to time as well. People make mistakes sometimes. Can we move on now? We have a distressed country to attend to. Ohio Guy

Jonathan H said...

I agree with Aesop.

First, while Tam often has good points, she is unnecessarily snarky while being overly confident in her opinions.

Second, I agree that that PARTICULAR DLH doesn't have much to recommend it.

Third, as discussed ad infinitum above, there are places and uses for DLH. Note that some of the recommendations above, such as vehicle carry are NOT legal in all states. For example, Ohio is one of several states that says that a loaded weapon must be on you person while driving - a weapon anywhere else in the vehicle must be unloaded. In situations like this, as discussed above, a DLH is much more accessible than most other options.

Fourth, I'm glad to see an absolute opinion in a grey area get shot down. There are no products that I'm aware of that are always and everywhere a bad idea - there are many products that used outside of their intended niche are a bad idea.

Mike said...

"A drop leg holster is a dumb idea."

So you go for the straw man? It was not asserted that drop leg holsters were dumb ideas, it was asserted that THAT holster was a dumb idea, and possibly that using them outside of specific situations was also a dumb idea.

That type of holster is a specific tool for specific uses - to clear body armor and gear. And there's a specific way to wear them, which the photo clearly does not show.

Matt's point about you being a non-carrier talking to people with extensive time carrying does have some merit. There is a very good reason we all have boxes full of holsters that just didn't work out. Most of us have gone out and tried multiple ways to do this stuff to find ones that actually work. This isn't one of those things you can talk about and think about and come to a solid conclusion without actually trying it.

Add to that that you're trying to remedy a training issue (how to remove and clear the seat belt to draw) with a piece of impractical gear that will actually work WORSE than the one you're trying to replace.

Worse? Yes. Sit in your chair like you're driving your car. Put your hand down like you're drawing a weapon from a thigh rig. Kinda run out of room on the up stroke, don't you? You're still going to have to unbelt and shift around to clear the seat. Going to a drop leg has solved nothing while creating a new set of problems.

For drawing from a seat, a shoulder holster or vest-mounted holster is the only way to go.

RandyGC said...

Jonathan H: ... Ohio is one of several states that says that a loaded weapon must be on you person while driving - a weapon anywhere else in the vehicle must be unloaded

That is incorrect. From the Ohio Attorney General's site, the current edition of Ohio's Concealed Carry Laws (https://www.ohioattorneygeneral.gov/CCWManual), Page 11:

Transporting in Motor Vehicles

A concealed handgun license holder may transport a loaded, concealed handgun in a motor vehicle. You may not have a loaded handgun in the vehicle if you are under the influence of drugs or alcohol.

Motorcycles fall under the definition of motor vehicles. Thus, the same requirements apply to licensees who carry a handgun while on a motorcycle.


That's the sum total of discussion in the AG document on a License holder carrying in a vehicle. If you do not have a License then:

If you do not have a concealed handgun license, you may not transport a loaded handgun in any manner where it is accessible to anyone inside the vehicle without leaving the vehicle. If you do not have a license, you may not transport a firearm in a vehicle unless it is unloaded and carried in one of the following ways:...

This section of AG Document references Ohio Revised Code (ORC) 2923.16

The first part of the ORC 2923.16 (Sections (B) and (C) prohibits transport of a loaded weapon, however:

(5) Divisions (B) and (C) of this section do not apply to a person who transports or possesses a handgun in a motor vehicle if, at the time of that transportation or possession, both of the following apply:

(a) The person transporting or possessing the handgun is either carrying a valid concealed handgun license or is an active duty member of the armed forces of the United States and is carrying a valid military identification card and documentation of successful completion of firearms training that meets or exceeds the training requirements described in division (G)(1) of section 2923.125 of the Revised Code.


I think the limitation you are referring to may have been in force some years ago but has gone away as we chip away at improving the Ohio CCW law.

Aesop said...

@Mike,

Srsly?
I never misstated the argument.
THAT holster is not a "dumb idea".
If this concept is too hard for you, let me know.

I named a third use: to not have your holster under your seatbelt, and/or jammed into your ass while driving.
It's not my fault nor my problem Tam never thought of this, whether explicitly or just apparently.

Matt's point remains pointless.
Something is either dumb, or not dumb. I demonstrated that holster (and anything similar) is not.
End of discussion of the point.
Premise disproven. A does not equal B.
Argument over; I win.
This is how logic works, formally and informally.

Removing the seatbelt isn't a training issue.
It's an needless obstacle.
Yes, you can train around being stupid in the first place, but it's easier to not do something stupid (like wearing a holster where you can't get at it immediately, which, IIRC, is the entire effing POINT of carrying a weapon on one's person).

If the point is that you shouldn't have immediate access to it, put it in the gorram car trunk, FFS, and eff off. Or leave it at home in the safe, and drive home if you need it. How far would you like me to reductio your ad absurdum before you knock it off?

Worse?
1) A chair is not a car seat.
2)I run out of no such room on the draw from a thigh rig. Maybe see an orthopedic specialist if it's a problem for you.
3) I don't have to unbelt or do any such gyrations to present from a car or truck seat, because my joints cleverly move and rotate at shoulder, elbow, and wrist. A lot faster than I could unbelt, move around, and draw from any other holster.
4) Claiming that there's only one right way to do this is pretty much the same malfunction identified in the OP. There's a helluva lot of ways to do anything.
Some are better than others, and some things work differently for different people. Almost like we were somewhat unique as humans.

Anybody declaring that they've cracked the case, and done the thinking for everyone on the planet on this topic has been the bane of gun "experts" pretty much since the Chinese invented gunpowder.

If anyone is too small-minded to admit a variable range of solutions, once again, they're not tall enough to speak on this - or most any other - topic. It's a fatal flaw.

Matt G said...

Thanks for the reply. Or lack of one, actually.
Sure, it’s an appeal to authority. When those who have done it and examined it are the authority, there’s something to it.
Part of my job is teaching cops to carry and shoot handguns. I have been doing this for a decade. I have carried a gun daily as a cop for two decades.
Tamara writes about and studies the carry and use of firearms, and she has an extensive list of high-end classes which she has taken to further her understanding on this. She has logbooks documenting many tens of thousands of rounds downrange. (I’ve seen them.)
When my assertion on theoretical particle physics is met with a refutation citing Stephen Hawking, I have been outclassed by a superior authority in the subject.
I will nod and concede defeat.
Aesop, I’m no Hawking, nor is Tamara, but here it’s time for you to consider concession.
Drop leg holsters have a narrow use. Absent that use, they are dumb. They are cosplay.
If you just want to let your derp flag fly, I am all about that, sir. There’s a picture out there of me wearing a Webley while wearing a pith helmet and a kilt. But it’s silly costume, plain and simple.
Please don’t tell me that your argument is just as good; it is theoretical.

Anonymous said...

@ Matt G from Ohio Guy: Maybe you were born an asshole.

Unknownsailor said...

Here is a thought: When carrying, if you get into your car, put your pistol in a holster mounted to the center console.

Me, personally, I'm not a fan of the drop leg holster, because I don't spend all day, every day, in hard plates. I will not deny the utility of that holster type for carrying while seated in a vehicle, however. Me personally I'd rather find a way to hard mount a holster in the cabin and just transfer my handgun when I get in the car.

Anonymous said...

Matt G a moment of semi-levity now...

There’s a picture out there of me wearing a Webley while wearing a pith helmet and a kilt. But it’s silly costume, plain and simple.

Chuckling at the mental image NOW I want to find that picture!

A Kilt is an honorable uniform. I've met some pretty tough British Soldiers not ashamed of their Regimental uniform. Nuff said. A 455 Webley is a pretty effective revolver with almost the ballistic ommph of a 45 ACP and most folks would think that effective enough as pistol rounds go. A Pith Helment does work well for keeping the heat and sun off your eyes.

A Costume maybe but all useful enough items.

NOW BACK to the IMPORTANT stuff like arguing over a drop leg holster. Which I have worn when in the Sandbox wearing armor and riding in a MRAP. It works for full sized service Pistols that I PERSONALLY wouldn't TRY to carry concealed (pointed at my junk or whatever...). A 9mm Shield works in a pocket holster for that need.

Andy said...

@Matt

"When those who have done it and examined it are the authority." Not necessarily. Just because someone has "done something" DOES NOT make them an authority. Their findings are their opinions of what works or does not work for them and them only. If a so called authority says a cross draw will not work because they cannot get it to work then they have decided it doesn't work and want everyone else to not do it because they didn't or couldn't use a cross draw holster. The same is true for drop leg, IWB, Appendix, or any other form of carry. Bottom line is this and it really is simple...do what you like and I will do what I like. I won't bash you for your choices and you should not bash me for mine. You don't know me or anyone else on this board or what our likes or dislikes are so please Sir, zip it!

NOT A COP said...

Oh holy shit, Matt G the COP is in the house! Did any of you know he is a cop? Well now you do! Everybody bow down and kiss his boots because we are not cops and HE IS! Respect his authoritah!

You go you big copper you!

Anonymous said...

I am in my 60s.The way that I carried everything during my govt. sponsored tours of lovely Nam is not how I carry things now. Although I was never a cop, I have carried a weapon with me daily for 40+ years. I have so many different options for carrying any and all, that I am confident in saying "whatever the fuck works for you, in whatever given situation, on whatever given day, is the way to go." Years on this planet have taught me a few other things as well, such as "opinions are like assholes... everyone has one." Me? Even though old, I'm still in good shape,the Corps requires it and I have not stopped. I carry a Ruger LC9S IWB, in a Relentless Tactical suede holster. Works for me, might not for you. Once in the truck, I take my 1911 out of the lockbox under my seat, and put it on the seat. Easy peasy.
- Grandpa

Andy said...

Did we know he is a cop? I know you are being sarcastic but just in case Matt thinks you're serious...DILLIGAF! I'm all out of cookies.

Aesop said...

@Matt G,

"Drop leg holsters have a narrow use."

Someone more erudite with short-syllable words, please explain to Matt G how he just conceded the argument with that statement, after making my case.

BTW, and not for nothing, but my experience is not theoretical, and rests on many hundreds to thousands of hours carrying (no small part of it in vehicles).
All of which is entirely irrelevant to my argument, which is why I didn't honk on it like it was the only trumpet in the band.
I'll also go out on a limb insofar as an educated guess that something between 1 and 0 hours of all your classes and all Tam's classes combined cover carrying in and drawing whilst in vehicles (I'm open to credible counter-assertion with explanation), but that as a cop, you should be well aware of the inherent problems with OCing and CCing a holstered weapon and dealing with seatbelts and other impedimenta, and thus should have known better.

But anyone who makes a living in a vehicle, and not while wearing a duty belt, may have a slightly different perspective than you.

Something that's not a dumb idea sometimes (and let us not forget, by your own admission) is, ergo, not a dumb idea.
It's like being pregnant: there's no such thing as "a little bit".

This is how logic works.

In classical logic terms, if A is ever not B, A is not B. Period.

In terms you may grasp better, White is not Black.
So that leaves Shades Of Grey.
Which was what I've said all along.
There's nothing there to walk back, for me.

You're now arguing against yourself, and against the OP, plus on my side.
All the rest is simply rhetorical window dressing.

Also not for nothing, the difference between Tam's post, and Travis Haley's opinions, is a vast gulf. Tam issued a flawed pronouncement. I called it out.
Travis (I've seen and heard it) typically says "This is what I do. Here's why I do it. It may work for you. It may not. YMMV." I can respect the latter approach. The former not so much. IMHO, and no slight to the hours spent, but that's the difference in outlook between someone who's taken hours of training and fired many thousands of rounds, versus someone who's taught thousands of hours of training, and fired many thousands of rounds. One of these things is not like the other.

You should probably stop now, unless you have more lessons to teach on this topic besides being a K9 chew toy in a mattress suit.

And stay safe out there.