Wednesday, January 22, 2020

A Swing And A Miss

So a few days ago, I noted that Tam had rather grossly overstated the argument against the above holster.

Being busier here with another topic, I hadn't noticed her reply.
If you hadn't seen it either, by all means, RTWT.
She takes me to task for this statement of mine:
"We won't even talk about ... where your appendix carry muzzle is pointed, sitting in a vehicle seat." - Aesop
with this response:
"If you're carrying AIWB correctly, it should be pointing at the seat. If it's pointing at anything else, you need to fix yourself." - Tam
And icing on the cake, posted the following video to "help" me see the error of my ways.

I thought my vision was pretty good, but maybe I'm off and it's time for glasses. Any guys out there, go to the 1:21 mark in that video, and tell me where this guy's got his muzzle pointed.

I may also have different anatomy than every guy on the planet (I haven't seen you all, so I'm being scrupulously scientifically accurate), but I'm almost metaphysically certain I have different anatomy where that muzzle is pointed than Tam does. Which was the exact point I made about appendix carry. The muzzle in the video she chose for an example is pointed at the car seat all right...after passing through a few bits I (and presumably, shortbarrelshepherd in that video) are rather fond of. So if I could offer a few brief rejoinders to her observations:

a) I'd need to "fix" myself - like tomcats get "fixed" - to not be pointing at the danger zone previously, scrupulously, and accurately identified. Tam might like that, but me, not so much.
b) The parts in question, being anatomically attached to me, don't move very far from the designed anchor point, just like they're right in the kill zone in the video. Anyone in the class remember what Rule 1 is? Anyone...?
c) The proximity of the muzzle (not to mention a blade) to two separate femoral arteries, which allow one to bleed out in about 10 seconds if well-punctured, probably needs no further explanation. Nor does what happens when airbags go off or one's body flies into the restraining seatbelt in a collision at speed. I'm morbid like this, but it would strike me as an annoying irony to wear a gun for protection, and have it discharge into my vitals because I placed it directly in the impact zone of vehicle safety equipment, because Gaston Glock or Bill Ruger didn't think to crash-test it for me beforehand. Just saying.
d) If you're going to school someone with a video, probably best to watch it first yourself before making the other guy's points for him.

To be fair to Video Guy, he says he has a G19, but never entirely draws his gat, so it's possible, if he has a custom 12" slide and barrel on that piece, that it points only at the car seat. (It would be an awkward draw at that point though, would it not?)
Otherwise, while making some solid points about better carry while driving in terms of prepping your personal battlespace, this is a great video how-to on how to attempt accidental castration under stress or by accident.

You watch the video, and you decide.

I had also noted
"We won't even talk about where that IWB is digging into you all shift" - Aesop
Garnering in response
 "Oh, please, Aesop! I've driven on I don't know how many all-day-long cross-country roadtrips with a strong-side IWB holster. IND-to-ATL, IND-to-MSY, IND-to-OKC, IND-to-ABQ, IND-to-FOE, and that's just in the last couple years, and not counting shorter ones to TN or OH... Make sure you don't buy crappy belts and holsters and that they fit properly." - Tam
Noted, Tam. I don't buy crappy belts and holsters, and yet in some, even many vehicles, IWB simply doesn't work if you want accessibility and comfort. Comfortable is generally less-than-ideal for accessibility, and accessibility runs less-than-ideal for comfort. There are hundreds of makes and models of cars, and 100M weapons owners, probably something approaching 10M of whom carry concealed or open in vehicles.

So yet again, I'm going with the notion that for any number of combinations of them, they might be built differently than me, or Tam, and find other options than belt carry a better fit, unless they're willing to give up one or the other attributes, if not both. Including the drop-leg originally profiled. As opposed to "dumber than an acre of fungus, dude."

But the real poser was a video linked in her response, which post and embedded video you'll have to watch there to see. Please, do.

First, mad props to any school working inside a vehicle, even briefly, but let's be fair.
1) It's a junker for shooting training, so no seatbelts used nor trained with.
Train like you fight, fight like you train. Well, maybe not so much.
2) The tussle portrayed is great for a shooter inside your vehicle, in the passenger seat.
For someone in the back seat, or outside the car, again, not so much.
3) I watched it several times, and have yet to see Tam (in the driver seat, evidently) draw anything from anywhere to prove her point about her car seat draw. Maybe she did, maybe she didn't, but damned if I could see anything like. I saw her wrestle with a passenger for his gun on his left side, so if you're a cop, your partner is a southpaw, and he decides to cap you, and while you were unarmed, that video would come in real handy. But I didn't see her draw anything from anywhere at any time.

Anyone, watch it yourself, and feel free to tell me where she drew a weapon, when, and from where.

Otherwise, the takeaway seems to be to practice taking the gun away from the bad guy, because you didn't bring one...? Whatever. I'm stumped.

And then, what I assume was supposed to be the rhetorical kill-shot:
"Now mime moving your hand backward from the holster like you're trying to draw the pistol. What happens to your elbow? Hits the seat before the muzzle is even clear, doesn't it?

Can you see why dudes who were issued dropleg Safarilands would use vest mounted holsters for mounted patrols?" - Tam
1) Looking at the drop-leg in the OP, my draw stroke wouldn't be so deep and straight back that my elbow would be impeded by anything. I'm not getting my wallet out of my pants pocket, I'm pulling a compact pistol out of a holster that's already halfway down my thigh.

2) And exactly as noted in comments to my post, my shoulder, elbow, and wrist all cleverly pivot and rotate, as OEM equipment, to allow me to pull and draw a pistol on my mid-thigh with minimal muss and fuss. Not so much for a Desert Eagle or a custom long-slide .45 auto from The Terminator

but no problem at all for an LCP, a G19/26/30, a PPK, or any number of short-barreled revolvers. Problem non-existent. Maybe it might be worse if you're tall and riding in a sports car with wrap-around bucket seats (paging Tam), but for average me in a pickup truck, no trouble at all. Which only goes to prove my point, yet again, that YMMV, and there's a lot of ways to do some things in a world full of variables.

3) Of course I can see why a vest-mounted holster would be better than a drop-leg Safariland for mounted patrols. Which is nice if we're talking about someone doing a mounted patrol, or where anyone is issued that sort of gear.
I don't know how they do things in Indiana, but around here, Lyft, Uber, Yellow Cab, the trucking companies, and the pizza delivery shops don't usually issue load-bearing vests or holsters at all. So that's not really a very good point, is it?
(It might be more applicable in Chicongo or Baltimore, but hereabouts, not so much. )
So once again, getting something comfortable and accessible without going all Tactical Timmy is probably a bit better choice for Joe Average.

Which makes a dropleg holster, like the one pictured, not-so-dumb for a pretty notable demographic among the population who carries a weapon for protection, as opposed to issued for duty. Not necessarily the only choice, best choice, my choice, or yours, but for a non-zero number of others, probably very non-dumb.

That was all I said then, and Tam's reply does absolutely nothing to make any points at all that it's anything different now.

She's away this week, so I hope she enjoys the SHOT Show, whether she sees this or not.
I suspect we can both agree that that's always a fun week.


Anonymous said...

Ah, Gott sie dank! Back to more important stuff.
I have had the benefit of schooling in both driving and shooting, thank you, taxpayers. I'm a big fan of Clint Smith and one of his many good sayings is "If you're gonna drive, drive; if you're gonna draw, draw. Not both"
My comment about changing from drop-leg to plate carrier was from the perspective of someone not driving but riding on the right side of the vehicle in an environment where hanging long guns out the window was not an option. On that side it can be difficult to get to a DLH if you're right-handed
As I noted in an earlier response I carry every day. The carry I most used in training and primarily now is OWB aft of the hip. My PT program is paying off and IWB at the same place is now very comfortable too. What is NOT comfortable EVER is violating Rule 3. Appendix carry ain't happening.
Just to stir the mix, while I can and have carried strong side on car trips, crossdraw is much more comfortable and accessible. Since I live with real winter a snubby carried crossdraw under a partially zipped vest/ jacket has proven effective for me.
Boat Guy

Danny said...

As a govt. trained bodyguard and personal protection driver "I" learned to carry 2 guns when driving, cross draw for the seated position and strong side for my primary. Ankle carry is also good when seated in the drivers seat. Now in my "mature" years when I am behind the wheel I only carry one gun "wink,wink" and when my cover clothes are thick enough I carry cross draw all day, however sometimes I carry an airweight Smith an Wesson on my ankle when I am going to be in a car a lot.YMMV

Anonymous said...

I do AWIB carry only, when doing concealed. No other carry position on the belt has merit, for me. Outside on the place or in the woods, chest rigs work all right, particularly during the winter when presenting a pistol from appendix carry has some serious delay problems. For driving, I have learned to suck up the discomfort of appendix carry, since it beats out the comfort options of a holster mount in the vehicle and the need to transfer that gun to on-body at the most inconvenient times- such a C-store visits and flat tire times.

For me, a 2" Model 10 in a thirty-yo modified Milt Sparks Summer Special holster, with a split-six loader carrier and a Bianchi speed strip, gains the most all-day comfort. A G48 carried at the same position with a mag in support, comes in second for comfort. A 5" M1911 has its comfort problems due to its length. And yes, I did the trigger work on the M1911 and do not trust others' work until inspected (18x magnification of engagement surfaces), by me.

If anybody has any concerns about appendix carry: then they are absolutely right, it is not for them. I don't flog appendix carry as being the right solution for many people, in fact it's not, due to stupidity in gun handling. But I do have a hard time with people who condemn the practice universally, due to their need to be right. Gun Nazis are everywhere. Discussion of carry positions gives them chances to rear their ugly heads.

Anonymous said...

Oops, I forgot to sign the above comments re appendix carry.

Quietus stands by what he said.

Quietus (you could look it up, it's both a noun and a ghost town.) I

Anonymous said...

I trust women don't have to worry about junk down there, but for me to appendix carry, I have to move stuff (not fat) out of the way. Seated, I muzzle my junk. Some of the less blessed might not have this problem. YMMV. Appendix carry is not some new marvelous "look what I discovered" kind of thing, just better holsters available for it now. Having been issued a shoulder rig (both for handguns and subs) we were taught and practiced how to not muzzle on the draw. Not sure why that is so hard for people to learn or why so many supposed "experts" can figure that out, but do what makes you happy and doesn't get anyone shot or killed unless they need to be.

Mike said...

The police and sheriff's deputies have made OWB carry work in a multitude of vehicles, including motorcycles, for ~100 years. I carry OWB and don't feel a need to change while driving. In my opinion....YMMV and good luck to whatever mode of carry works for you in your situation.


To your point about the junker for training and no belts, I submit that if she were properly belted in that scenario, she doesn't even get to the point of being twisted to her right and wrestling for his gun because of the shoulder restraint. She might be able to but I bet it wouldn't be as easy as it was portrayed in the video.

And if she is wrestling for his gun, does it matter where hers is? John Lovell in one of his videos wrestles w/ an MMA fighter for a gun and both he and the fighter agree that they were more worried about the gun that was ALREADY out than the one in the holster.

I generally disregard anyone who deals in absolutes because many times life doesn't work that way. She's an "expert" so no other opinions or experiences need apply (much like her buddy the COPPER!).

Jack said...

And this is why I would put money on Aesop in the blogging Thunder Dome. Not everyone is the same build nor do all of them drive the same vehicle.

Jack said...

After watching the other video I do have to ask: Outside of your employment being Lyft or Uber... Why is the bad guy in the vehicle to begin with or am I the only one with a strict no hitch hiker rule?

Mike_C said...

I flew out of LAX last night and noticed one of the LA Airport Police (LAXPD, it's a real thing) walking around with a DLH, which I'd not seen before on anyone at the airport. Later I saw him sitting behind a desk, and because of this Aesop-Tam exchange I asked him if DLH was standard issue for LAXPD ("No, but it's an official option; the department paid for this.") Just for fun I asked his opinion about seated draw ("more difficult?") and he gave me the "are you an idiot?" look while saying "No, it's much easier." No point to this anecdote really, just thought it was funny to see a DLH on some guy walking around after all this drama.

As to femoral arteries, anyone who's ever "lost control of the groin" after a femoral-access heart catheterization can attest to how muchly much blood gushes out of even a 5F hole (0.066 inches) in said artery.

Paul said...

the drama is between Tam and Aesop. I don't drive while carrying IWB. I have the DeSanitis grip on a 38spl air weight (Suggested by Tam on her site) and the gun rides in the door pocket of my truck when I am driving. I think IWB is a bad idea seated. I do not want my junk or arteries perforated. A good reason to carry a revolver. Less likely to have a ND. But those are my opinions.

TRX said...

Sometimes I feel left out. Being one of those mouth-breathing retro shoulder holster dweebs, I miss out on all the joys of getting my internal organs rearranged by the holster and fancy wraparound bucket seats, getting hung up on chair arms, leaving my gun on the toilet tank, or the other fun the AWB/IWB people seem to have.

My gun just rides quietly under my shirt; just reach up and pull down. And in seven years of carrying under a polo or tee, if anyone noticed, they didn't say anything.

Anonymous said...

Pride cometh before a hole in your junk! Ohio Guy

Anonymous said...

I'm with TRX. Shoulder holster is the most comfortable way I carry.
- Irksome

Anonymous said...

Tam is nothing but drama.
Calls everyone out, yet can't take it when others call HER out.
Been nowhere, done nothing, but knows all. Surprised she isn't a liberal progressive.

Anonymous said...

Nice to see that Sam Kerodin dropped by at 8:02 PM.
Aesop & Tam may disagree, but I'd think they'd do it in a civil manner.
--Tennessee Budd

Aesop said...


No drama here, unless you think that normal means a coma.
I just think she went off the cliff calling something stupid, that isn't always.
No more, no less.