Saturday, September 28, 2019

Why This Argument Always Ends up The Way It Does

From comments to a link of my post at Borepatch's, courtesy of frequent commentor on multiple sites Beans:
"To use your DQ reference, say I'm on my Harley and are coming back from the shooting range with my AR race gun all tricked out. And I want to use the can. So, if open carry is legal, why can't I carry muh AR, hurhur, into DQ so I can drop a deuce and get a cone?"
Stupid hypotheticals are still stupid.

Take your AR home from the range, and then go get your ice cream. The hallmark of adulthood is impulse control and learning to live with delayed gratification. (Except, evidently, for some owners of modern carbines.) Jackassery problem solved.

(And FTR, nobody said you "can't" carry there. The word was "shouldn't". Learn the difference.)

Stop pimping arguments for the childish morons, please. You're just enabling them. As is Angus.
You both ought to know better.

You can contort all you want; if someone's open carrying long arms, in most times and places, and absent exigent extraordinary circumstances, no matter how you want to twist and gyre, you're overwhelmingly likely just being a dick for no good reason.

That has nothing to do with "them" coming for your guns.
That's been true since at least the 1960s, openly.
And yet, people then didn't wander into the local store packing a rifle either, just because they could. Because it was stupid then too.

The Open Carry Retard Posse needs to stop making everyone who owns, or carries, look as stupid as the twatwaffle who thinks his wish for ice cream right now and "muh open carry rights" trumps common sense. I don't need nor want people with a mental malfunction to self-select and appoint themselves spokesholes for "the movement". Those retards are drawn to attention-whoring like politicians are attracted to news cameras and microphones. They're making the problem worse for everyone, for zero gain, except scratching the itch of their own psychosis. The end result is plenty of good cause to restrict a natural right, because they're that short-sighted. Hitching your wagon to their tractor of Dumbass isn't helping anyone, in any way, except those who are "coming for your guns".

I repeat, please, stop enabling stupid people and carrying their water.

Otherwise, take your same hypothetical, and make it stopping off for a tour of the White House, the local government building, or watching the weekend high school football game, and show your work. "Why shouldn't I be able to register my vehicle or pay my property taxes on the way home from the range with an AR-15 on my back?" It's that stupid, and there isn't enough lipstick at the entire mall to pretty up that pig.

Stupid ideas are always stupid, and nothing in either natural law nor the Second Amendment ever changes that. Play stupid games...

So why does this idiocy persist?

Because you can't argue someone out of a position with common sense and logic, if he didn't use them to get to his position in the first place.

Newsflash, kids: the Second Amendment isn't absolute. Neither is the First.
They are both limited by common sense and common law.
And neither gives you the right to gratuitously scare the shit out of people, which is all this is about.
You want to exercise the right to carry a weapon when you need one, which means you can't be out flaunting your surrogate dick everywhere all the time, when you don't need to.

Try a thought experiment: Think Navy Seals. Army Special Forces and Rangers. Marine Force Recon/Raiders. The SAS/SBS. Certified Tacticool Badasses. Operating operationally way beyond you, any day of your life.
Posted below: All the times you see them toting guns to the supermarket, the bank, and the local ice cream parlor, 1960-present:

So just maybe, catch a fucking cluebat there, right in the back of your head.

And when, because of fucktards coming in with their carbine on their shoulders, and sending little old ladies and schoolkids into tizzy fits, Dairy Queen bans all open and concealed carry on all their private property, which trumps your Second Amendment rights by a country mile, because you were busy being a civil rights attention-whoring jackass, don't come crying on the internet saying the business owner hates guns.
The reality is, the business owners hates idiots. And the shoe fits.

When an entire state bans open carry, because you've made their case for them, take full responsibility. You greased the wheels on that, and then pushed right along with the gun-banners, to make guns in public less likely, because you could.

When you manage to turn the trend around, of allowing open carry, and start turning the clock back to no carry anywhere nationwide, like you will, own that too.

Well played, genuisii.

Because, snowflake Baby Duck historically clueless folks, back in the misty beyond of time out of mind, even Califrutopia was a full Open Carry state. No, really. Just like Texas is now. So, how'd that work out?

One day, somebody realized that meant for anybody not otherwise prohibited.
So we got this here:

When it's 1966, and you've lost the NRA and conservatives like Reagan, you've lost the entire country. And you did.

What could possibly go wrong now? Ask voters in Philly how they feel about Black Panthers monitoring polling places with weapons in hand. (Probably the same way cops in CA felt about a carload of armed Black Panthers rolling up to "monitor" them writing tickets to black drivers in 1966; just a hunch.) CA wasn't a Leftard Paradise in 1966. You could look it up.

And this isn't about race. It could be (will be) biker gangs. MS-13. Antifa. PETA. Skinheads. Save The Whales. Or any 57 other groups of fuckwits. And in about 0.2 seconds, people will see the gaping elephant-sized hole in your Open Carry Everywhere arguments, and that's the ball game for you, for another century or more, while the tide rolls back in those same 45 states.  (You'll be dead by then, but hey, fuck your kids and grandkids, amirite?)

Now ponder the timeless logic that "Just because you can, doesn't mean you should."
I blame Common Core and stupid parents for not raising kids to know the meaning of "ought". Getting the concept across nowadays is harder than teaching Chinese calculus to most folks.

Own your fucktardery, if you've been trooping your hardware in public in the first place, to be a dick, because you have no common sense. And then apologize to everyone else for making yet another place off-limits to self-selected sensible carry, or any carry at all, because of your jackassery.

Like. This. Has.

I will list, below, every instance of the Open Carry Assclown Posse owning that, since ever:


So stop being dicks, stop carrying water for the dickheads, and go bandage your own dick if you think this is an unlimited black and white discussion.

Real life is harder than that.
It requires some brain usage.
The Founders saw that requirement as a feature, not a bug.
Try and keep up.

It's taken 50 years of hard, patient work to claw our way back to laws in 90% of the country based on common sense.

So, if only for the novelty where open carry is concerned, try using some


RandyGC said...

I made a comment on your previous thread on OC about "not scaring the straights".

Regardless of how you feel about the movement and the current state of society, from a tactical and strategic point of view as a movement: How much did the more flamboyant and in your face participants in Gay Pride parades in the 70's and 80's help the Gay Rights movement? And how much did they hinder it and delay them getting to the point they are now?

CF the Black Panthers, NoI and Malcolm X vis a vis the Civil Rights movement in the 60's. (Some might quote the old story of how the Establishment dealt with MLK to avoid dealing with Malcolm X, but that doesn't mean the implied threat helped in getting acceptance from the general population)

Aesop said...

Exactly, and more so, because you can discriminate against gun owners, and you don't have to deal with the sane ones or the idiots. You can just ban them all. And it's been done, over and over, even in open carry states.

When you can't go in any businesses, because they've all banned guns - open or concealed - how much is a "right" worth that stops at your car door, every time, because you were a public jackass?

You'd think people would stop shooting their toes after the first one, but some folks ain't that bright.

Anonymous said...

These Open Carry Absolutists remind me of the not so logical, insane students at the University of Texas that were open carrying rubber dildoes to shame the Second Amendment folks that wanted to carry on campus. The Rifle Toting Fools have the same "Look At Me" self centered psychosis as their paranoidally fearful gun banning counterparts.

The only difference I see is one is carrying a fetish made of rubber, and the other a fetish made of steel and wood.


Anonymous said...

Does anyone ever notice the apparent (as in visual appearance) look of stupidity that seems emblematic of the open carry absolutists?

I have CC'd, in and out of service category, for more than 50 years. Always CC regardless of authority, privilege or liberty. The element of surprise is a valuable commodity. The casual disposal of it correlates with the aforementioned appearance.

A.B. Prosper said...

I am about as pro gun as a person can be but still If you are not a police officer do not bring your open carry guns AR or handgun or anything else into my establishment.

Hell leave the sword , dagger or bowie behind for that matter.

There are a tiny handful of exceptions for say a general store in hunting season but it's rude to carry openly

Robin Datta said...

"(And FTR, nobody said you "can't" carry there. The word was "shouldn't". Learn the difference.)"
Or maybe, UNlearn the sameness.

In the early 1960s when I was in my early teens, it was customary among adult tribal males of northern (Khyber Pakhtunkhwa) and western (Baluchistan) of (then West) Pakistan to carry long rifles when out in public. Of course their womenfolk almost never ventured out of the house; when they did, it was enshrouded in "burkhas", body-bag with eye slits, and escorted by an adult male.

Once America fully accepts that "Islam is right about women", that kind of open carry should be quite okay here.

Aesop said...

As if that's ever happening, or like we'd ever want it to.

You buy into Islam, you get the whole Shitholian goathumper package.

Unknownsailor said...

Aesop, your arguments are going to bounce off the brains of the fucktards in question because they have convinced themselves that what they are doing is a Good Thing.™

The same fucktardery that brought us the occupation of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge.

The fucktards in question don't listen to no one, and can't see past their convictions to see how their actions hurt the cause they purport to represent.

They are not tall enough for the ride.

Beans said...

Is it legal? Yes? Then...

Is it allowed? Yes? Then...

What's your problem? With any of it? If it's legal and allowed?

Anonymous said...

I personally could care less about someone open carrying. But Aesop has a valid point about when is it proper. Where I disagree with him is saying rights aren't absolute. Maybe if the Gov't can violate the 2nd, then maybe we can pass laws restricting Gov't paid people from lying. Common sense right? How about common sense slavery laws. They are allowed by the 14th amendment. How about common sense abortion laws? Who gets to decide what is common sense? That's why I believe all rights are absolute. It seems that the Gov't believes that their delegated powers are absolute, so why shouldn't the limits on Gov't, our rights, be the same.

Robin Datta said...

Rights become an issue in community (non-hierarchical horizontal relationships) or society (hierarchical vertical relationships). Rights and their restrictions can be soft, as in unwritten communal or social norms, or codified into law. Altering rights and the restrictions upon them entails alterations to the attitudes and even world-views of community and society at large. Some methods employed are mass shootings, truck bombings, Konzentration Lagers and gulags, "re-education" camps, etc.

Anonymous said...

Rights ARE absolute. They are NOT "granted" by goverment. Our Founders placed restrictions ON government.
That said; Rule #1 applies, Don't Be A Dick. Unless you have to do so.
The 1960's were evoked. A pair of boys ( one of them being me) used to walk to the local range with .22 rifles slung over our shoulders with zero hue-and-cry. T'was a different country then.
My grandson won't be able to do that. Unless real civility returns to this country. Not holding my breath, but I'll do what I can.
See Rule #1.
Boat Guy

Robin Datta said...

"Rights" imply more than one involved party. For a solitary recluse, absent contact with any other human, the concept of "rights" does not apply. No third party grants rights in absentia. A right is a right only when it is both claimed and acknowledged, whether explicitly or implicitly, whether normative or legislated.

George True said...

Regarding the hypothetical about the guy on his way home from the range with his AR15 and decides he wants to stop at DQ for an ice cream cone: no problem. Just exercise the foresight to carry a cable and padlock with you. Snake the cable through the magazine well and the receiver, then through the frame of the bike, and padlock the cable ends together. Problem solved. (Back in the day, that is how we used to secure our M-16's inside our lockers in the squad bay.)

Anonymous said...

As the latest gambit in the continuing coup d'etat plays out this whole discussion may become moot. Many of us might be toting our long guns for cause in the near future.
Boat Guy

Nori said...

Merriam-Webster defines common sense as: sound and prudent judgement based on a simple perception of the situation or facts.
It appears common sense is extraordinarily un-common these days.

Really good point about Special Forces guys. The true badasses amongst us don’t flaunt it.

Another thing-don’t any of the clown show pictured above realize they are identifying and presenting themselves as a fat,juicy target??
I have a great HK hat my brother gave me I stopped wearing because so many strangers commented on it. Why single oneself out for special attention?

Anonymous said...

"It could be (will be) biker gangs."
1) During the time I participated in the V-Twin oriented alternative social milieu I did not find them to be given to stuff like open carry of carbines to get attention. They tried to avoid doing things that would result in somebody calling the cops. Even if carrying the rifle is legal there is no reason to do so, since flying a patch gets enough attention, and somebody IS packing so best not to draw any more. When not "in uniform" pissing off the citizens is frowned upon.
2) When SHTF you can bet your cojones they will constitute a formidable faction.

Aesop said...


"What's the problem?"
It's jackassical.
It's legal to prosecute someone, knowing that the mere process will destroy them.
That doesn't make it just, moral, ethical, or prudent.
The list of things that are legal, but evil, is legendary.
Don't believe me, though. Just swing by any office of Planned Parenthood.

If that low bar of bare legality is your only argument, and you're fine with anyone acting the jackass because it's currently statutorily permissible, ROWYBS.
And when it's made illegal, because average folks are tired of jackasses in public, don't then bitch, whine, and moan afterwards that gun-haters got your rights curtailed.
Own the fact that you shot yourself in the foot because you were too smart to be smart.

I invited you to make the same case for traipsing into the White House, the courthouse, or the local school football game, toting your AR-15. Show your work.

Blockheadedly pretending nothing else was offered in explanation for why what's legal is also almost invariably stupid beyond description just means you're either too lazy, or simply utterly unwilling, to make the case for being egregiously stupid in public.
That forfeit will still be scored as a loss if you aren't up to the task.

And for the anonymous genius who thinks any rights are absolute, explain please why your 2nd Amendment right trumps anyone's absolute rights over their own private property.

When you fail at that task, congratulate yourself: you've just recognized that rights have limits. Even natural law rights. You have no 2nd Amendment rights that dictate that anyone must grant you full leave to bring your cannon to their house party, or into the burger joint, or anywhere else. In fact, the opposite is true: they have the absolute right to tell you to fuck right off, and charge you with trespassing for even attempting to violate their wishes.

So when it comes to pass that you can't even bring your heat into their parking lot, what good is your 2nd Amendment going to do you when private citizens are absolutely free (as they have been always) to completely restrict your exercise of it everyplace but on public space, and on your private property, and have you arrested if you trespass with your guns onto theirs?
You'll have achieved Califrutopian levels of gun rights, and the state doesn't even have to lift a finger to do it.

At that point, the only people with guns wherever they will are criminals, and you're now one of them.

Well played, sir.

I invite you to look up the statutes regarding "felon in possession", before you tell your own future after that.

For extra credit, name a right - any right - that is absolute.
I'll wait right here while you fail to do so.

Let me know when that penny finally drops for you.
Then, return to the high school that granted you a diploma, and demand a refund for failure to provide you even a cursory education in the rudiments of reality.

ASM826 said...

Just a nitpick, "You want to exercise the right to carry a weapon when you need one..." Just how do you know? I carry a hand gun not thinking I'll need a gun. If I knew I was going to need a gun, I'd bring a rifle, a brace of magazines, and all my friends with rifles. That's what law enforcement does, too.

I carry a large portable fire extinguisher in the truck. If I knew I was going to a fire, I'd have the local volunteer crew in a pumper truck along for the ride. Same, same.

Aesop said...

Which is why carrying (open or concealed, dealer's choice) a pistol is prudent, while carrying a rifle and a brace of magazines all the time is jackassical.

Or would you also be wearing a life jacket and a parachute, just in case, 24/7/365?

And if you thought a rifle all the time was a good idea, why stop there?
Under the "Who Knows?" Theory, shouldn't you be carrying an M-240 GPMG and two cans of ammo? And travelling everywhere, even to the bathroom, in an APC?

In fact, if things are that sketchy, why in hell ever leave your bunker?
Shouldn't you be dug in and forted up under 3' of dirt, just in case of whatever???

15Fixer said...

ROWYBS???? Please define......

Glen Filthie said...

I see your point Aesop and you are correct as far as it goes.

But, here's what grinds me: you are concerned about the sensitivities of people who don't give a rat's ass about yours. I know how this works too - up here in Canada bed wetting shitlibs not only are frightened by the idea of you carrying a gun, they don't even want you to own one - and they sure as hell won't stand for the thought of you defending yourself with one. The law of our land says that if you are not shooting or hunting, your guns HAVE to be locked up, stored separately from the ammunition, blah blah blah, they all have to be registered etc etc ad nauseum. Our current swine minister - Turdo La Doo - is going into the next election promising to grab all assault guns if he's elected. Up here, filled to the rafters as we are with shitlibs, socialists, queers and degenerates - he may very well win. Pandering to people like that isn't going to get you any consideration from them. They not only want your AR's and AK's... they want ALL your guns.

If some shitlib has a kiniption because some hillbilly has a rifle on his shoulder I am just peachy with it. I used to worry about being fair to those people... but no more.

Robin Datta said...

Roll On WithYour Bad Self

lineman said...

Rock on with your bad self...

ASM826 said...

"In fact, if things are that sketchy, why in hell ever leave your bunker?"

Why indeed?

Because we go out expecting nothing bad to happen and for almost everyone, every time, our expectations were met. I did the groceries earlier today. I did not need the air bags, seat belts. fire extinguisher, or the SP101.

I'm not leaving the rifle in the safe because of what people think. I'm leaving it in the safe because my risk assessment says the threat level is low. If I'm ever wrong and I'm hunkered down on the can goods aisle as rounds are impacting the baked beans, I'll regret not being more paranoid.

Aesop said...

"because the threat level is low"

Which Has Been The Entire Point Of Both Essays!!!

The threat level has ALWAYS been low. And outside of a couple of urban shitholes, ALWAYS will be.

That's why toting long arms around is jackassical, most places and times. Because it's stupid, and unnecessary.
If that reality materially changes, use your head for more than a hat rack and make a frickin' adjustment.
Change your carry choices, or change your zip code.
(File this under: Duh.)

No one over here with any sense is saying a pistol is too much.
But you don't go Rooftop Korean without a good excuse, like a city-wide riot.
It is not, for example, appropriate everyday carry, outside a couple of already-offered examples.

But that miniscule amount of brain work is precisely the amount of common sense beyond the grasp of Open Carry Idiots.

Fucktards gonna fucktard.
They can't help themselves.

And people who can't grasp that probably shouldn't be trusted with even rocks and sharp sticks, let alone anything more lethal.


Canada is its own problem set, which I neither address nor analyze.
My sense of things there is you all are either going to be Britistan v2.0, and then Venezuela, in short order, or you're going to find a pair, sack up, and go all Lexington and Concord on HM Minions, once and for all.
I don't see a status quo third way option in your long-term future.
Best wishes either way.

ASM826 said...

"And people who can't grasp that probably shouldn't be trusted with even rocks and sharp sticks, let alone anything more lethal."

That's not how it works. There's no infringement, even for rednecks, neckbeards, and other assorted riff-raf. We all get trusted whether you, me, or Nancy Pelosi thinks we should.

I agree with the main idea of your post on this topic, but it doesn't follow that people who open carry should have their rights stripped.

Aesop said...

I didn't say they ought to have their rights stripped.

I said they're too stupid to be trusted.

The two concepts are not mutually exclusive; both can be absolutely true at the same time. And frequently are.

Or did you think all those bullet holes at the local firing range in the ceilings and walls shot themselves?

ASM826 said...

Here we agree. They get to vote, too.

Chuck said...

The first amendment gave Hollywood the right to thoroughly disgust and offend people by portraying faggots in everything they made until it became thought of as normal. Carrying guns causes less of a gag reflex in normal people now then sodomy did when Hollywood began their propaganda.

Harleqwin said...

With all due respect to you excellent writing capabilites, you sir are fucking WRONG.

Open carry sends a message.

Stop being a fucking pussy about that message. Or, roll over and die.

Love your writing capability. Sometimes, we just fuck up and get shit wrong. Learn and move on.

Aesop said...

Yes, it does.

Open carry of long arms when you have no rational excuse for such sends the message that you're a fucking idiot.

If the city is not in open riot, if tigers and grizzly bears are not rampant in the park, the total number of reasons for doing this boils down to possession of a mid-double-digit IQ.

The lack of this modicum of common sense among maybe 5% of the gun-owning community tars the other 95% with the same retard brush, damages your supposed cause, and undermines everything you wanted to convey, except an inability to reason at an adult level.

Learn and move on.

Rob said...

I forget who's quote this is so I’ll paraphrase, “your pistol is your means to get back to your rifle”. Keep the long gun in the truck. If TSHTF in DQ your pistol should suffice until you can get to your rifle. We don’t live in Baghdad.