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| Four, of two million examples. This week. |
Divemedic bemoans that a law institutionalizing the gravely disabled might be misused. Rather than clog his blog with this rather epic reply in disagreement to that proposition, we post our response here. I get where he thinks he's coming from, but he's way off-base in this instance.
Natzsofast, Guido.
"Grave disability" as good cause has been on the books here for literal decades.
You're missing hugely on this one.
The crime is that it's taken 60 years to enact it beyond the pointless 72-hour hold, and start the process of re-institutionalizing the perennially to permanently crazy into a system that was stupidly disassembled two generations ago, by prior faux do-gooding by entirely evil libtard jackholes.
Laws against even murder can be abused too.
Shall we repeal those as well? The rules regarding the fallacy of reductio ad absurdum apply in full, when you draw a slippery slope the size of the Great Wall of China. Any excuse based thereon is moot.
For that matter, they've abused the Second Amendment in numerous states. Should we repeal that because government refuses to get it right until they're dragged there, kicking and screaming, by honest judges?
These people aren't homeless because they misplaced their home, or left it in their other pants (or shopping cart). They're homeless because they're batshit crazy, drunks, stoners, terminally and childishly irresponsible and entitled, serial criminals, or, in 98% of cases, some combination of all five.
We're not talking about "gentlemen of the road" happily cooking hot dogs and pigeons on a forked spit under the railroad tracks, living their best lives, whistling tunes and playing harmonicas, happy and free, and minding their own business.
We're talking about literal plague-host hordes of rotting, shambling, scabrous, filthy lunatics shitting and pissing themselves 24/7/365, wherever and whenever nature provides opportunity, and leaving a trail of fecal matter and dropped maggots from their open sores by the yard.
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| Every city hereabouts, of any size, every day. cf. "Shithole". |
And you're now arguing that those people, literally too crazy to clean themselves to the barest public health minimums, care for themselves to the level of a first-grader, or seek food or shelter sufficient to not starve or freeze or get sunstroke, should be allowed to fester and rot on the sidewalk?
That's the Calcutta expedient.
Try that experiment in Key West, Miami, Tampa, and Tallahassee, and please, get back to us on how well it works.
I can find 5000 lab rats for your experiment within the sound of a gunshot from where I'm sitting at home, right this minute. Totally not kidding.
Sorry, but the distance you're off on this one would need satellite GPS to calculate.
They won't go to any of numerous shelters, because there are rules there, chiefest being that they can't commit crimes against each other, shit on the floor, or bring their dope and booze inside. Horrors!
And they won't take their psych meds, because being sane "feels weird" to them, and feels not nearly as fun as being stoned on weed, methaphetamine, carfentanil, or stewed on any booze they can find.
Welcome to the corner of Civilizational Minimal Norms Street and Tough Shit Avenue. Instead of seeing you 500 times a year at the local ER, we're putting you back in the Crazy Zoo you belong in, and once a year, we'll hold a court hearing, with your court-appointed advocate present, to decide if you can unfuck yourself well enough to have another crack at life outside. Keep coming back, and we stop asking the question, forever, for you. Don't like that? Mexico is due south, and Canada just a couple of states north. Or you can buy a rowboat, and start paddling west from the shoreline. Best wishes, whichever you choose.
The only thing better than this would be to forcibly return anyone apprehended under it to their state of origin, based on their social security number. 95% of them weren't born here, don't belong here, and were dumped hereabouts deliberately by 47-49 other states, by handing them a plane ticket and a rehab slot, which they failed out of within hours, and they then ended up stuck here forever, homeless, stoned into psychosis, and rotting away on my sidewalk.
Every other state should own that behavior, and take back their own state's native douchebags to deal with as they see fit, other than shifting them onto other states, which should be actionable at law, including criminally, for repeat offenders. A couple of governors and state officials getting frog-marched in cuffs would be a salutary outcome.
Second-best would be house arresting them, with a complement of the homeless they foisted on us moved to bunk in with them for a year or five, with the culprits entirely responsible for their feeding, clothing, and housing.
Stop sending us your douchebags and lunatics from every point on the compass, and there'll be fewer of them for us to round up hereabouts.
QED
Even Libtard bastions like Santa Monica and San Franshitco have finally seen the error of their ways. So whenever you see Califrutopian officials, usually with their heads waaaaayyyyy up their own asses, making any constructive efforts to wipe the shithole TPTB have let the once-Golden State become, back off, and let them take a shot. They've done nothing for literal decades. It's time for the people in charge to scrub that anus, and pull their pants back up, like any self-respecting person would.
Personally, we're pretty sure they should have taken a flamethrower to the problem some years back, but we're old-fashioned that way.
32 comments:
Nevada would be a good place to build asylums big enough to house them all; the desert is good enough for radiation/nuclear tests, and adding a 1 cent tax to every transaction in Las Vegas’ casinos would be enough to pay for it. Plus, driving through Vegas might pick up a few extra druggies.
Aesop: I agree with almost all of what you've written. What you endure on a regular basis is insanity-societal insanity that this type of non social behavior would be allowed and not suppressed or stamped out. I do not see homeless people on the streets in Oklahoma. They are here but they stay generally out sight. There was/is some type of homeless encampment back in the woods near where my dad lives, but you would not know its there unless told about it. They keep a low profile which to me says they have enough awareness to know it will go badly for them to be public.
I guess the only part that I disagree with is that I don't want you to send a bunch of dysfunctional troubled homeless to my state. But if they were intentionally sent from my state to California then we deserve to take them back. I just don't think we've done it.
I feel sorry for you up Aesop. The insane are truly running your asylum both from the top and the bottom.
The current obscenity with mentally ill on the streets started with the ACLU's case Reise v St Marys in 1987. Before then you would see mentally ill on the streets every now and then but due to powers given by LPS the police / local health dept could either force them into long term treatment programmes, and enforce them, or send them back to their home town / state for treatment. I remember all the street junkies / winos etc in downtown LA / SF in the mid 1980's but not that many mentally ill not taking their meds But by the early 1990's the mentally ill were very noticeable.
I know the numbers regarding street people in SF have nt changed much over the decades. At least not since the late 1980's / early 1990's. Around 6k to 8k. Almost none of them "homeless". Long term city residents who lost their accommodation. At least 80% on the streets are recently arrivals with no connection to the City. Mostly out of state. Another 10% only short term or tenuous connection. And maybe 10% were NorCal locals. Most of the locals tend to be winos or mentally ill. Most of the out-of-towners street junkies, drifters or pre mid 1990's / post Prop 47/57 - street crims. The drifters are never a problem. Often interesting people to talk to. With interesting stories.
Of those on the street less than 10% are mentally ill not taking their meds. The rest are mostly bad decisions / bad luck people. With a 90/10 spit based on the stories I've heard. Mostly bad decisions. It takes a lot of work, a lot of bad decisions, to end up as a street junkie. I'll make a lot of time for those who have stopped lying to themselves and others and are getting their act together. The rest, fuck 'em. The street drunk tend to be locals so I give them a bit more leeway. If they are having a bad day I'll give them some time.
Its always interesting watching the reaction of the clueless "we must do something" people when you start explain the numbers. And in the case of the mentally ill. Who put them on the streets and who has kept them on the streets for the last 35 years. Disabilities Rights CA. A quasi state organization that get $50M a year of taxpayers money. Another of Jerry Browns clusterfuck legacy. He was the one who made DRC the state designated org for the Fed Disabilities Act back in the 1970's
Your impressions may have been true 30 years ago, but it's far, far worse than that now in SF.
As of last August, the SF guesstimate is 20,000. Not 8K.
And in SoCal, it's literally 3X worse, or more.
Those numbers are merely best SWAGuesses, and worth what you paid for them.
Conservatively, they actual tallies are likely double the most optimistic estimates, at a minimum.
Not to mention seven other coastal counties that used to have a miniscule problem, which has now metastasized inland into areas that 5, 10, or 20 years ago, never had so much as one homeless person visible. Now there are hundreds, every single day.
They didn't spring forth from the sewers.
They keep landing here, and they can't get any farther west because of the ocean.
The only reason the junkies in my state haven't moved into Cali is simple. Blew their money on dope instead of a bus ticket.
Personally I think a mass purchase of wood chippers could fix the problem overnight.
Roy says:
Nope, Aesop, nope. Gotta remind you of your ultimate allegiance.
You deserve commendation for you recognition of reality. You deserve even more commendation for your rejection of load shifting. But you have not yet returned to the first principles you know. You have not given weight nor regard to the Handbook, the Operator's Manual. It both diagnoses the problem and provides the only cure. Attempting avoiding its evaluation and response will at best delay the disaster which will eventually develop. SoCal's last few decade history illustrates just that.
The Book says, "He that will not work, let him not eat." To use your (correct) comment, you could look it up.
Put the responsibility where it lies. Understand and apply what the Book says elsewhere: "The laborer's appetite works for him...." You could look that up, too. There's a lot of wisdom to be found in the Book. Wisdom being, among other things, how to recognize, evaluate, and deal with people.
Sure, that's tough. But it is the loving response. And it is not, indeed, cannot be in conflict with what the Book's author says elsewhere about personal charity caring for those with needs. (Not state charity; pesonal charity.)
Apply only those two directives, and the pictured problems of SoCal would go away. Fairly quickly, too.
A modest proposal: free fentanyl at all state homeless shelters.
No, narcan is not included. But free grave for all who pop & drop!
Homeless bums are a problem. On that, we agree. Where you and disagree is in trusting the government, especially California's government, to fix it.
I don't think it's a slippery slope argument when we already know that California government is abusing the medical laws that they have. Take the guy who was just arrested for not wearing a mask to his eye appointment and expand upon that.
Say, a government declaration that anyone who refuses a COVID vaccine is mentally incompetent and must be forcibly vaccinated. Is that so far-fetched?
https://thepostmillennial.com/california-man-arrested-for-not-masking-on-last-day-of-gavin-newsoms-covid-emergency-measures
I like the "send them back via SSN number"
Great way to delineate the fuckers.... Most of the "fucking pure-dee crazy" tend to, for whatever reason, from the colder Northeastern Staatz. Ask me how I know.
The BIGGEST problem IMO, and this's from a purely hardcore POV is IS WE'RE TOO FUCKING COOPERATIVE AND NICE
FUCK being kind... this shit had gone one now for almost 70? maybe 80 plus years and 'it's never their fault?"
FUCK. THAT.
You know what? Round up the homeless... Divide them in to groups... the 'down on their luck/need a hand' group... the 'got hooked on drugs and lost everything group' the 'too crazy to live in normal society' group...
Get everyone PROPERLY classified, and then get down to biddness.
Kill ALL the worthless non-recoverable.
Fuck 'em.
Do it via 'happy ass-smoke bullshit' that makes it sound noble.
IRL? Fucking Gas Them
Harsh?
You bet your ass... however, by dint of 'the other sides' argument that we have "limited supplies/food/resources" well then, by killing off these worthless fucking psycho-worthless breeding eaters, we're helping with the "plan"
Seriously... we coddle and not only coddle, but ADVANCE the weak, lame, lazy and worthless as a "Shining Example" of Humanity, when in reality, the weak and worthless?, if given to a TRUE Darwinian Example, NONE of these fucktards would have lived past infancy... and to me, that'd be a GREAT thing.
IMO, Kill them all...let God Sort Them Out.
I'm done with pity.
Fuck them all.
I think it would be more hygienic, better for everybody and overall less expensive for all these critters to be incarcerated/institutionalised in some way, at public expense, rather than having them roaming around loose and shitting everywhere. Let alone fighting, mugging folks , breaking into houses and every other damn thing they do. In other words, you don't get the choice to live your best life on the streets any more.
I would cheerfully pay a dollar a day, or whatever, to have people like this secured in a safe place rarher than having to avoid stepping in their turds or stepping over them.
Letting them rot on the street doesn't seem humane, let alone socially and economically wise.
Yes the Grave Disability law will be misused. Every single law has been misused at one time or another by bad people, and worse, by holier than thou, self-righteous, meddling pricks.
At least when it is bad people? Then you stand a chance of exposing their unlawful and wrong mis-behaviors, and affecting positive changes.
When the self-righteous do-gooders abuse the laws? Likely more than half the population will stand up and cheer for you using that law to stick it to that particular group, or that person. Maybe it's historic targets like the Negroes, or the Hispanics, or the Jews? Or the Rich, the business owners, the "intelligentsia," the white trash, or the damn Yankees? Maybe it is the murder law and Kyle Rittenhouse, or Alec Murdaugh are in the dock?
Laws will be abused. But it is our job as citizens to identify, protest, and stop any abuse. But we also have to use laws as the Legislature, the Executive Branch, and the Courts allow to remove the destructive and deadly mass of criminal, mentally ill, and drug abusing human refuse off the streets.
Using these laws to get the chronic homeless off the streets is actually fairly moderate. It is also better than Chairman Mao's murderous solution, or resorting to industrial sized wood chippers.
Re-Create the mental health institutional system to save their souls and their lives.
RD
Your state drew homeless,drug addicts,mentally ill, and welfare mooches from all over with the mild weather,lax enforcement,overly generous benefits and public tolerance,most thought it worked.... till it didn't.
It's like having a raccoon at your backyard bird feeder. Having one show up is fun and interesting. Having 80 every night and day,attacking you and eating your birds is a situation that has to be dealt with. Your state hasn't dealt with your raccoon problem yet, but maybe you'll finally start. I Was stationed in San Diego in the late 80s and it was nice but I saw the start of the decline even then. And thought it was crazy to watch people just tolerate the homelessness and drug abuse. California's bed was made back then when they closed all the state mental hospitals and now your sleeping in it.
@Glacialhills,
They weren't drawn here, they were shipped here. When the 1000th one describes in the exact same way how they were given a rehab slot in Califrutopia, and given an airplane ticket and additional cash by TPTB in NewFuckingYork, PA, Massholia, etc. etc. etc. ad infinitum, that's not being drawn here, it's being dumped here.
They should be shipped back to point of origin the same way Texas ships illegals to libtarded sanctuary cities.
Maybe getting committed in a mental health lockdown for six months or a year will help them get clean and sober, but the ideal is returning them to sender.
___
@Divemedic,
There's no one else but the government to fix this.
And after screwing it up to begin with via the false economy of closing the mental health archipelago, it's their exact mess to clean up.
Anything more than doing nothing is an improvement over the current status quo.
Trying to bootstrap not-crazy into being declared crazy is a short recipe for armed insurrection.
The state, particularly this state, trying that, isn't a bug, it's a fond wish.
Because then the gloves come off, and it's time to start shooting the bastards in the face.
They can't handle 100K "homeless" now, armed with nothing more than being batshit crazy.
One Dorner tied this entire state in knots for a week. I saw it firsthand.
So please, go ahead and declare 5M-20M armed and pissed off COVID refuseniks "crazy" and see how long before the statues of Marx and Lenin get toppled here, and the politicians and their sycophantic minions become wind chimes from every tall pole in the state.
Please let them be stupid enough to push that button.
Aesop,
The Government...any government has only three choices;
Hire them, or
Maintain them, or
Kill them.
Doing nothing is not a choice in a functional society.
It is a slippery slope. Good laws (and this is one) only work when applied with a moral compass.
California kangaroo courts have none.
They will use this law for evil. So they will do for any law on the books.
If they started actually using their brains id be fine with a new law. Really any law. But every new law should be opposed as long as these assholes are in charge.
The numbers of street people for SF really have not changed much over the decades. Or where they come from. The numbers go up a bit when qualify of life laws are not enforced. Like mid 1970's to early 1990's. And now. They go down when quality of life laws are enforced. Like mid 1990's. And after Three Strikes really cleared out the street crims.
Its about 6K to 8K. The Homeless Industry has these "surveys" which come up with very high made up numbers so that they should be given lots more money. Which is around $90Kper street person per year. Which the people on the streets see very little. The ones who arent street junkies have some very interesting stories to tell about the Homeless Industry and its mostly outright fraud. So those recent "surveys" are just made up numbers. By a very vested interest.
At least in SF the street people are now a lot more visible, even pre 2020, because downtown / Lower Market has been pretty much cleared out of the ordinary daily pedestrian traffic you would have seen 10 or 20 years ago. Because of the anti car reconfig of downtown streets and the removal of most parking spots. So now its like The Omega Man. Empty. And full of crazies. Who used to be mostly seen in areas like SoMa, Inner Mission and Mid Market. Before those areas were gentrified.
Still not as bad as UN Plaze in the early 1990's. Or the blocks around the Greyhound station in downtown LA in the 1980's. If you did not know LA in the 1980's the movie Repo Man is mostly a documentary. I met most of those people in LA back then. Circle Jerks / Black Flag / Fear was the soundtrack to that LA. Have nt spent much time in the Southlands recently but I've known the region so long that I can only give / understand directions using freeway names. The 10? Oh you mean the Santa Monica Freeway..
When Prop 47 was passed in 2014 my first reaction was - Here we go again. Back to locked car doors at all times, rolling stops at red lights, and always having your foot on the accelerator as well as brake at all times. Driving skills I learned back in the 1980's. Plus all the usual streets smarts. Like watching who is watching me.
I was sized up for a street mugging for the first time in almost two decades not that long ago. Made sure the guy knew I saw him and knew what he was doing. Last guy who tried anything ended up in jail. I made sure of that. So the guy quickly fucked off and from the police reports it seems he found someone who was not paying attention to mug a few blocks away.
So for those who might only have known California post Three Strikes the last 10 years must be quite a shock. But to old timers, who remember the 1970's and 1980's, well, it can get a lot worse. A lot lot worse. There are a bunch of old LA and SF local TV newscasts from the 1970's and 1980's on youtube. Yeah, it really was like that back then. That sketchy. All the time. And then we had the Riots. With the Roof Koreans being only the most well known of what happened in LA when it went totally MadMax in 1992.
Still a long way to go.
Yeah I understand what BCE is saying. Get rid of them - they serve no purpose other than to define human degradation. NO - you are not allowed to defecate on the sidewalk - you inhuman piece of ...
Perhaps so ething a bit more sophisticated. It is common to have "good" patients who respond well to medication while under supervision but who soon relapse in the "wild" since they ditch the medications and resort to "self medication" with "street" drugs. A year plus ago, "Brother Dingus" ( a fictitious name, obviously) was having mental issues that he treated with street drugs. The Buffalo Police were called when "Brother Dingus" was running naked in a snow storm. "Brother Dingus" died. Most family don't understand that "crazy" is forever. There seems to be a fantasy that the meds and hospitalization have "cured" the problem. If the patient is "happy and "normal", enjoy that time. It is only temporary. Eventually, the "family" gets tired of the chaos and there is another " crazy" homeless person on the street of a tolerant city with a decent climate. The "patient" will never "learn or snap out of it". "crazy" is forever. The Courts do no better. If the patient looks "normal", he/she will be released to an unsupervised crash on the streets. It In't the patient's fault. They crazy.
When the family is exhausted and "gives up", then there is another homeless street crapper created. It is not a happy existence for anyone involved.
The civil commitment process was gutted in California by a lawfare campaign beginning in the late 60s or early 70s (don't remember which; Clayton Cramer's excellent My Brother Ron has the depressing history.
The truly evil man behind it was the ACLU's Bruce Ennis, whose successful plan to destroy the state mental hospital system used well-meaning reformers as stalking horses; he lied about his intentions until the tipping point had come and gone. Ennis believed that there was no such thing as mental illness.
As to the "disagreement" between @Divemedic and @Aesop, embrace the power of and. (Ain't healing here, though.) As @Aesop says, the law is necessary though insufficient. And as @Divemedic fears, California's horrendous legal system will probably use law and compliant and/or corrupt physicians to declare gun owners insane and in need of protection--thereby incarcerating them for indeterminate periods with the "homeless" population @Aesop describes so well.
Oh, and if the ex-gun owners do manage to get out? Almost certainly flagged for life in any background check system. Win/win for the gun banners.
Any argument based on "this will be abused" is reductio ad absurdum fallacious.
Game over.
Califrutopia wants to try and declare gun owners or anyone else not insane as "crazy" for purposes other than actual mental health, and the blood will run chest-high in about 30 minutes.
Please, by all means, let's get that party started!
The reality is that insanity laws have been on the books for centuries, with no such nefarious nonsense used hereabouts, not anyone else. You're arguing that we should let the crazy run free, because somebody, someday might misuse any of those laws?
That's batshit crazy.
It's also literal anarchy.
QED
@JL,
Relax, mate.
You won't be getting "Californians".
You'll be getting Texans, Pennsylvanians, Massholes, Arkansans, Baltimorons, Chicongolians, Philthydelphians, and people from every other state in the republic. Gripe at them.
Besides, if you can survive Filthie and Turdoo, you're resilient enough to enjoy the diversity a horde of crazy refugees from the rest of the States.
Once again, Spot On, Brother!
There are so many times now when I agree with "let's get the party started!" Patience is wearing very thin.
Personally I'd like 6-8 weeks minimum and frankly 6-8 months maximum for things to get spicy.
Boat Guy
Pretty soon we will see the St Louis 9mm response more often, and the places where it happens will *magically* not have a street bum problem any more.
There has to be a back story on why that white bum got shot and not others. I do not buy it was simply bad luck for him to be sitting there waiting to be shot in the head.
I gotta roll with Aesop on this one.
I'm with Aesop on this one.
I've seen a couple of news stories about homeless people lately. One of them put a dead fish on someone's porch, stole and wrecked a boat, and is now getting deported back to Canada.
Another complained because people did not have a good opinion of the homeless. A few months later, he threw a "bomb" and stabbed an attendant at a shelter.
I’ve never seen the homeless in Ca this bad in my 50+ years in Ca.
Drugs are getting more powerful, and it’s frying brains.
A person I knows homeless Brother committed suicide by cop. It’s on YouTube. Guy was high on something and pulled a fake gun on the cops. Guys family tried so hard to help him. But he wanted the freedom of the streets so he could get high.
When the asylums were turned out, what did we expect? Most folks with mental issues don't like to take meds because their normal brain is so much more fun.
I see someone brought up the ACLU and Bruce Ennis. The story I heard from someone who was there at the time is that Ennis was a Rich Kid Trust Fund Baby type who was seriously mentally ill, but of the most dangerous type, a truly evil and nasty psychopath. And anyone who has to deal with this type of psychopaths knows what that entails. I did not under stand what evil was until I had to deal with one of theses people. They can be charming and seem intelligent but are actually just cunning and, well, evil. You learn that everything they say or do is a lie, one way or another.
The ACLU have been prime-movers in putting and keeping the seriously mentally ill on the streets. As for the hard core street people, the street junkies and street crims, overwhelmingly borderline / full blown sociopaths / psychopaths. Either warehouse them in prisons until too old to harm people or Year Zero them. Makes the world a better place.
We have lots of abandoned military bases that can be utilized. Would work for illegals as well.
I did defense for involuntary commitments for ten years. As I recall, about 90% were homeless street people long term. They were seriously mentally ill and needed long term residential treatment, and then a halfway house - that's about 30% of the total. Sixty percent needed custodial care, for life. What they got was the attention of law enforcement and a trip to jail, where they drove the jail security detail nuts. Then they;d get sent to the local ER for screening, the 72-96 hour psych hold, then the hearing. I'd get the case, talk with them, find out if they had any support structure - family or friends - about 10% did, then we worked something out so that they'd be off the streets, otherwise they got committed. The trouble was that the state was using cheap foreign contract doctors, they'd keep them in until they were "stabilized" on psych meds, then given a bus ride back to the streets with a prescription, which the great majority would not or could not fill, because they didn't have the money - or by the time they got the money the psych meds had worn off, their craziness returned, and they wound up spending the money on street drugs which were relatively cheap and readily available. After a few weeks or a month, they'd act out or do something dumb, and come to the attention of law enforcement, and the cycle repeated. I had a guy who had been in and out of the state hospital 8 times in a year - that he could remember. By the way, insurance pays for no more than 29 days of residential treatment per year, after that you're looking at $300 per day - and few can long afford that. A lot of these people are going to wind up with Parkinsons or chronic dementia - usually Alzheimers - most likely due to chronic drug abuse, although psych meds will do that as well.
Someone suggested gas chambers, and a number of California mental hospitals had those from 1919 to 1931. That's literally where the Nazis got the idea - see https://www.thelibertybeacon.com/eugenics-and-the-nazis-the-california-connection/
It's a problem for which there are no pleasant or easy solutions.
Roy said:
streamfortyseven 9Mar 8:10 pm more than any comments (including Original Post, tho its pics not merely powerful, but poignant) provide analysis level data.
And concludes: reality is tough. Said conclusion, when translated, reduces to "nothing works".
Really? Nothing? What keeps folks from my 3Mar 4:15 pm appeal to the designer's manual?
in a just world they would be shot when they pulled their pants down
I'd settle for tased to the county line.
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