Wednesday, November 21, 2018

From Comments:




From late last week, which I missed earlier:
Aesop,

My questions/thoughts are fraternal and non-antagonistic; I am assuming that you have thought about these, and I want your take:
1. Foundational: CA, with a significant population, already has some of the most onerous (not NJ but heading there as quick as they can) firearms laws. It has a longer history of more firearm liberty than a place like the aforementioned NJ, where the culture is, in majority, accustomed to "only criminal have guns". The people of CA have generally acquiesced to the ever tightening noose by continuing to elect more and more of the same people who will enact the same and stronger measures.

2. Maryland has already killed a man during a non-due process confiscation. He now has cold, dead, and empty hands. I have seen no widespread outcry.

3. Janet Reno ordered and oversaw mass murder with firearms in juxtaposition, with zero just consequences.

What do you envision as being "the thing" that would cause widespread overt non-compliance?
Dear Anonymous,

1. By the numbers between 60-80% of registered CA voters, don't.
And something approaching 25% of residents here are illegal aliens, and/or children of same.
Knowing that, re-try #1.

2. Cops kill people they shouldn't every working day. I expect if I, or any number of other gun owners, were targeted by such blatant failure of due process, I would die too. But I wouldn't go alone. At that point, I could give a shit about "outcry". But I expect that taking 2 or 5 or 10 of the bastards with me might give them some pause before their next foray, regardless of the media hay made about the situation.

And anyone not doing their level best to make it just as hard for TPTB to enter their domicile in service of such nonsense, just as they make it hard for other criminals, is behind the power curve on this topic.

When "coming to get your guns" = death sentence for the person(s) knocking on the door, they'll stop that silly and unconstitutional shit right quick.

Nothing else will suffice, until we see them prosecuted same day for murder.
Which I'm not holding my breath waiting for, and a pile of dead douchebadges gladdens my heart more than seeing them in stripes anyways, just as seeing them killed while actually enforcing reasonable and just laws saddens it.

The good cops (and they are out there, if you look), will put a halt to this nonsense, on self-preservationist grounds if for no other reason, in short order.

Give them a reason to stop: shoot back. Encourage others to shoot back. Vote to acquit any survivors who shoot back.

If they want to follow actual due process, serve a summons, and present evidence of your alleged unfitness in open court that can be challenged by your lawyers, and force the parties swearing otherwise to be legally and criminally liable for perjury and civil lawsuits, and only afterwards, with a legal verdict to stand on, get a valid warrant, and try to take your freedom and/or your property, go ahead on with that. They don't have that many judges and court houses in the entire country to do that if they did nothing else forever. I don't want crazy people to have firearms. But we have some five to ten centuries of jurisprudence on this topic as to how you go about establishing that, and instant revocation of your constitutionally protected and pre-existing natural law right to self-defense is no part of that, nor ever could be.

Trying to short-cut the months-long wait for trial, that would soon become decades, and the fact that they'd lose 95% of the cases outright within minutes, is why they're trying this.

And for pity's sake, stash more guns somewhere they can't find. If they were to get a few, and you have twenty more, the second trip for them isn't going to go like the first one for them, is it?

You want to legally but unlawfully take my weapons?
Bring friends.
Say goodbye to them before you try it.
Some of them won't be going home at the end of their shift, for something you know you shouldn't be doing in the first place.

3. The Clintons and their Korrupt Klown Posse were in charge for that, including the Congress. At a time when the average person's view about how jaded the DoJ and Far Beyond Insanity are was much rosier. (The BATFE, conversely, has always been known as a bunch of cowardly chickenshit gloryhounding assholes, so no one was surprised at all at their initial raid, nor their response under fire when folks shot back. The mistake, AFAIK, was allowing them to police up their dead and wounded without slaughtering all that could be seen.) In short, 1993 was nearly 25 years ago, in a different America.

And last I looked, there's no statute of limitations for murder in TX, is there?

So, the bigger question is, when will Texas officials indict the ATF and FBI agents there for murder, and prosecute every damned last one of them?

And if even Texas won't do that, what do you think the odds are in the rest of America?

Non-compliance is a continuum. CA and several other states have experienced a 98% non-compliance rate when they banned misnamed "assault" weapons the first time. Two subsequent attempts have only caused sales of loophole guns to skyrocket here.
So, when legal AR-15s outnumber police employees in this state by about 5:1, how far do you think the state will have to take things before they get a faceful of non-compliance?

My guess is when they come to the front porch and knock on the door, which is why they, in every state with such laws, won't do it. Ever. It would be a suicide mission.

They have done the math on 600M guns, and less than 2 million LEOs, and realize that even at 1% active non-compliance, and doing ten raids a day, they're out of cops in about an hour or two.

And then, the folks left behind will probably go hunting, down around city hall, and at the state house. With no officers left to protect them, that devolves rapidly into the day Mussolini or Qaddafi got fired, in about a heartbeat.

Note the inherent civility of Italians: they not only killed their dictator,
 his mistress, and his minions, they actually labeled the corpses
for the benefit of bystanders in the deeper rows of spectators.



















In short, you can pull stupid shit off onesie-twosie, even here. Both sides regard a few dead citizens, or a few dead cops, as the cost of doing business.
You try doing ten or twenty at a time, and by 50 or 60, your odds of ever getting home drop to single digit percentages.

It's identical with the difference in baseball between one chin-ball, and throwing every ball at the opposing batters' heads. The benches empty on about pitch two or three. And sometimes, they bring bats with them.


And when bats become rifles, no one wants to play the game any more.
And every chief in every department, including NYFC, knows this in their bones.
And reminds their nominal government supervisors, every time they're asked.

The day they start coming for people, they'll do it after Last Rites in the parking lot, and wearing Rising Sun headbands, because they're not ever coming back.

So, functionally, it's never happening.

What'll tip things off won't be that sort of thing. Things cops know will get them killed, are the sorts of things mouthy "public servants" happily and cheerfully yap about out loud, as though they live in a magically impervious bubble, and no one would ever decide snuffing the candle was worth the burn.

That's going to cost them, because the politician species gets dumber by the day, while the populace grows better armed.

Just as war is far too important a business to leave to generals, politics is far too important to leave in the hands of politicians.

But Darwin is going to cull the worst of them, as happens in societies on a scale between decades and centuries. But inexorably, it happens.

Currently, we're overdue, and only the mass killing of the stupid people holds any hope of upping the mean IQ.

It's approaching time to Make Stupid Hurt Again.

What will be the actual match?
No effing idea here.

But I can assure you we're in a roomful of fused dynamite and aviation gas, and we have 500+ idiots flicking their Zippos.

46 comments:

Lord of the Fleas said...

And how we burned in the camps later, thinking: What would things have been like if every Security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say goodbye to his family? Or if, during periods of mass arrests, as for example in Leningrad, when they arrested a quarter of the entire city, people had not simply sat there in their lairs, paling in terror at every bang of the downstairs door and at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing left to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, hammers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand. The Organs would very quickly have suffered a shortage of officers and transport and, notwithstanding all of Stalin’s thirst; the cursed machine would have ground to a halt!
- From The Gulag Archipelago, by Alexander Solzhenitsyn

StarNinja said...

How do we deal with mass shootings in America? Taking yer guns was never going to work, so then what? This epidemic needs a fixing and I know all the very educated and intelligent people who frequent this blog have a cent or two to toss our way. So let's hear it. How do we save our children and brothers and sisters from becoming statistics at school or the mall or wherever?
My idea: have everyone who purchases a gun from now on sign a contract stating that they will not commit a mass shooting.
Question open to everyone. Please share!

Anonymous said...

Ahh, another double scotch, "Just show it the ice" from Aesop. Its the burn that makes it taste good.

Hold, Hoold, Hooold.

MF

Anonymous said...

Yeah. I suspect that not many of our betters are up on their Solzhenitsyn, or much else for that matter. SAD !! There are orders of magnitude more than 500 historically ignorant lefty dimwits flicking their Zippos stumbling about the powder kegs. They truly believe that they’ve got us surrounded.... the poor dumb, evil bastards. This isn’t the way that I’d like to see things play out but if they’re dead set on forcing our hand, well, so be it. Reap the whirlwind commie rat bastards and enjoy your journey down the River Styx.

Skip said...

Somewhere we heard of a plan. When it starts, the first to go will be the wives and kids of and whomever they think ordered it. They think they might take that a little personal and rethink. Of course They'll go down in flames but what have they got to lose.
Hunkering and waiting for a MRAP to pull up in the driveway is Waco. Shoot and scoot in their own neighborhood works a little longer. Shouldn't take more than a few days for it to catch on all over town.
Doxing targets is easy today and I think they know it.
In our town there is maybe 150 cops and sheriffs. Five or six should send the rest home.
Just a plan.

Aesop said...

@Star Ninja:
Right.
And have everyone with a dick promise not to rape, and that'll solve that one too.


I have a better idea: require Constitutional Carry (no papers, no permits, period) in all 50 states and seven territories, and ban Gun Free Zones for any place open to the public, unless the property owner (to include state and local entities) forces mandatory entry for all parties only through monitored metal detectors, and provides suitable armed security to enforce it, and is fully civilly liable for all injuries or losses on any such designated premises as the proximate cause of disarming the citizenry therein.

Your circus, your monkeys.
"An armed society is a polite society." - Robert Heinlein

Tim Carter said...

police with guns, average headsup guys with guns, sleazy side of town with guns, every thing in your post is smack on and better than most could post ty. 1776 is better than 1864

Anonymous said...

The left always oppose anyone in a school having guns. The might be afraid that that would end school shootings. They get so much political mileage out of them.

Anonymous said...

@Aesop:
I have a better idea: require Constitutional Carry (no papers, no permits, period) in all 50 states and seven territories, and ban Gun Free Zones for any place open to the public, unless the property owner (to include state and local entities) forces mandatory entry for all parties only through monitored metal detectors, and provides suitable armed security to enforce it, and is fully civilly liable for all injuries or losses on any such designated premises as the proximate cause of disarming the citizenry therein.

Roger that brother! When the penalty for being a cowardly killer is effective return fire within 1.5 seconds of the opening act it will suddenly lose its “great idea” factor. The most effective response to an attacking cowardly predator upon the sheep, is the rapid response of well trained sheep dogs. Gun free zones are just target rich environments for the 5150 crowd, perpetrated by the clueless at best, or the evil opportunistic plotting communist types being more likely.

Have a great Thanksgiving, keep up your great work and stay frosty.

An American in fly over country

StarNinja said...

No, see, they're contract bound so they can't do it. It's fail-proof! ;)

Your idea has merit. I don't know if living in Mexican Standoff: The Country would be very ideal, but it could reduce mass shootings. Accidental shootings might go up accordingly as jumpy people will be on the lookout for possible mass shooters, to say nothing of the black youths in hoodies who would die for the crime of being black. But yes, mass shootings would probably decrease.

"Politeness is over-fucking-rated."- Anonymous

StarNinja said...

For every well trained sheep dog, there are tens of thousands of armed sheep that are as likely to shoot themselves in the face as pick out an active shooter in the pure chaos of a mass public event. I would support an all sheep dog force of defenders, but that's sort of what we have now which leads us back to square one. Thoughts?

Anonymous said...

Well, I guess that 50 is not the tripwire that causes more than a yawn:
"State Confiscates Nearly 50 Gun Owners’ Guns"

https://www.dcclothesline.com/2018/11/16/oregons-new-red-flag-law-state-confiscates-nearly-50-gun-owners-guns/

Anonymous said...

Good thing those that settled the West were all unarmed, or there would have been mass chaos and bloodbaths every time a criminal-minded individual rode his horse into town.

Oh, wait...

You sound like the head of every LEO Union in every state that has voted on concealed-carry permits, foretelling streets running red with the blood of innocents from all the "untrained un-Only Ones" running around armed.

Forcast for your AO: sky be falling...

Anonymous said...

"Kapitulieren? Nein!"
_Onkel Totenkopf

AB.Prosper said...

We don't. Mass shootings are a non problem and the US rate isn't that high.

US violent crime rates counting only European origin Whites are about those of the safer parts of Europe. Even including White Hispanics and self/politically identified Whites its that of Finland. Its probably lower.

Dealing with the actual source of violence which is almost entirely Black and Latino gang members requires Constitutional Carry, Deportation, Jail Beds, Lead and Nooses till done.

The US White crime rate can be lowered as well with a few simple steps

#1 Mass deportation, trade and immigration controls to raise wages and increase job stability. All illegals and all naturalized people with significant offense or multiple minor ones should suffice. If more are needed anyone who fails a naturalization test and ending nearly all green cards as well This should be roughly 40 million or so over 5 years and will lower the cost of housing and increase wages and job stability . It also increases social homogeneity which is excellent for the working and middle classes, the only ones that really matter.


#2 Restore default custody to the male parent, removing no fault divorce and most alimony. This leads to more stable families and ends the main sources of broken families which are the net cause of crime

Doing that requires serious political luck or a post civil war situation though . Its not very likely that such reforms can be voted in.

paul scott said...

I liked the quote in the first comment by Solzhenitsyn
>> And how we burned in the camps later, thinking: What would things have been like if every Security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say goodbye to his family <<
yes indeed.

The Gray Man said...

"When the bats become rifles, no one wants to play the game anymore."

Some of us toting rifles will still want to play.

StarNinja said...

"Mass shootings are a nonproblem."
Yes, I'm sure mass shooting victims agree.
"The US rate isn't that high."
As opposed to what? War? This is the only country on Earth where this regularly happens. Gun regulation seems to work for Europe and Australia, but they don't have a gun culture like we do, hence the current dilemma. Without a social consensus, banning guns will work as well as banning alcohol did, which is why I posted the question in the first place. How do you solve a problem like mass shootings?
The non-white US crime rate seems tangential to the exercise since the question was about mass shootings, which is a honkey invention. I guess it's also hyperbolic because we're ignoring the questions of where will those people go, who's footing the bill to deport everyone, who's going to replace those jobs once they're gone, etc. Birth rates are going down. We ain't replacing 40 million people. Trade and immigration controls are sensible goals, but mass deportation is and always will be a pipe dream. DodDid work the first time we tried it. Or the next. See also, definition of insanity.

StarNinja said...

The good old days were the 1950s, not the 1850s. Update your calendar ;)
Being concerned about someone's fitness with a gun does not a Chicken Little make. I can think of a dozen people I never want to see handling a gun and that's before I start trying. I'm sure you can too.
Skies are just fine over here. I heard they're getting a little saggy over in Cold Dead Handsburgh, though.

Aesop said...

"Mass shootings are a nonproblem."
Yes, I'm sure mass shooting victims agree.
Reductio ad absurdum, and reduction ad minimum.
When you argue the case on the basis of whose ox is being gored, that's also circular argument.
That's the trifecta of fail, but nice try. 15 yards and loss of down.

Probably more people will die on the roads this weekend than were killed in mass shootings this century. I'm frankly too lazy to look it up, but call me when you're hyperventilating about holiday traffic deaths as if stupidity isn't baked into the cake.
More people die in an average major earthquake than the total of the Las Vegas shooting, the most egregious incident. Yet no one has stepped up to suggest we ban habitation in California as a result, which would be the exact same level of jackassitide required.

"The US rate isn't that high."
As opposed to what? War? This is the only country on Earth where this regularly happens.
Define regularly. Given the value of "guns in circulation" is somewhere north of 600M, a rate of 2-3 mass shootings per year in a population of 300M people is what decimal place of rare, for either guns or shooters?
Show your work.

Gun regulation seems to work for Europe and Australia,
Stabbing victims and those run over by trucks there would agree. Touché.

but they don't have a gun culture like we do, hence the current dilemma.
There is no dilemma. There are people who chose to ignore reality, and those who assert its existence.

Without a social consensus, banning guns will work as well as banning alcohol did, which is why I posted the question in the first place. How do you solve a problem like mass shootings?
Kill the shooters. Same day, whenever possible.
Imprison anyone threatening same.
Harrass the shit out of the media and politicians for glorifying them, and then dancing in the blood of victims to enact their desired progtard anti-gun agenda, and gun free victim-rich kill zones. (The fact of the matter is that Joe Biden's Gun Free Zone bill killed more people than all the CCW laws in every state, combined.)
And mock mercilessly those who keep trying to pretend like none of that's the exact impetus for the current examples.

The non-white US crime rate seems tangential to the exercise since the question was about mass shootings, which is a honkey invention.
So are firearms.
You've self-selected a black swan phenomenon, and are treating it like it's a serious problem, as compared to, say, getting bitten by rattlesnakes, which year in and year out, probably kills more people than mass shootings from 1603-present.

I guess it's also hyperbolic because we're ignoring the questions of where will those people go,
Away. Once they're over the border, IDGAF.
(cont.)

Aesop said...

(cont.)
who's footing the bill to deport everyone,
Everyone here is, just as always.

who's going to replace those jobs once they're gone, etc.
The jobs don't need replacing. If you mean the employees, exactly as Adam Smith explained helpfully in 1776, the marketplace will take care of itself. And for something like 180 years we managed to find employees without importing turd-world scabs, relying merely on teenagers with some ambition, and a desire for gas money.
I suspect either employers will raise wages until they get candidates, or they'll suck it up and work harder without the extra help.
Automation will also cover a non-zero number of entry-level make-work jobs, as the jackass snowflakes in Seattle who will lose their order-taking jobs at $15/hr are finding out, when McDonald's and Starbucks install touch-screen menus, which don't screw up, don't call in sick, and require no benefits, merely a wall plug and occasional maintenance.

Birth rates are going down. We ain't replacing 40 million people.
Nor need to. That's 40M fewer illiterate chillins to miseducate, 20M fewer D voters now, and 50M fewer in 18 years, and millions of cars not on the road, millions of crimes not committed by millions of gang-bangers not spawned on the streets and not paid to be misraised by billions in welfare bux not fiat printed, taxed, and spent. Trying to see a downside there, but it's just not happening.

Trade and immigration controls are sensible goals, but mass deportation is and always will be a pipe dream.
Start shovelling the first million over the wall, and then tell me how that sentence sounds. As to trade controls, which way are things breaking for us under the current administration vs. the previous four?
The New World Order is DOA: QED.

DodDid work the first time we tried it. Or the next. See also, definition of insanity.
Look up "Operation Wetback". I'll wait. Then look up the definition of historical illiteracy.

We can and should start rounding them up, and tossing them back.
The US' fundamental purpose is not to be a tampon for Mexico's criminals, idiots, and revolutionary needs.
Once they have to unfuck their own failed state, it will explode, they can kill each other down to rational population levels, and perhaps after another 100 years of that, they'll finally unlock the secret to a prosperous country not run by the crookedest sons of bitches in the hemisphere.

O, if only we didn't have the secret to constitutional government, free market capitalism, and individual rights locked up in top secret vaults in Fort Knox, thus preventing anyone else from trying that, otherwise every country on the planet could prosper as we have, without anyone's help but well wishes.

StarNinja said...

For the record, I also don't think holiday traffic deaths are a non-problem. Or buildings that aren't up to earthquake code. I guess that's controversial these days. But hey, I'm a controversial guy!
If we're talking frequency, I'd say 2-3 per year is too high, though it's more like once a week or more. If we're talking quantity, more than zero is probably too high.
Getting stabbed or run over ain't fun, but it sure beats getting shot. Don't take my word for it though. Feel free to apply the scientific method and test it out yourself. Fact or opinion? You decide! (Show your work or no credit)
There IS a dilemma. Boy oh boy is there. Total gun ban might work, but never get implemented because guns are too integral to our national identity. Hence the gridlock, hence the WWI yard by yard legislative dueling, hence the impasse etc etc. Again, gun ban don't work if there's a pipeline to the outside where guns can come in. It has to be all or nothing and it's never going to be all. Ever. All is impossible. It's too ingrained in our fibers. Hence, dilemma.
Your solutions for dealing with mass shooters have potential, but it could also get way out of hand very quickly. See also, Somalia.
I'm also concerned about rattlesnake bites while we're on the subject. I think we can do more to bring those numbers down. I feel like you keep bringing up these other lethal issues to downplay mass shootings. I don't care less about mass shootings just because more people die from choking alone in their homes. Let's work on all of those things!
Once they're over the border, YSGAF. No country on Earth is going to accept them. "Deal with your own issues, Merica!" The second we try to pull that crap is the second we discover how toothless we've become. We ain't Israel. We can't pull that shit without becoming North Korea 2: Only It's America This Time.

StarNinja said...

I ain't footing no God damn bill. You want to pay for it? Set up a GoFuckMe page. The government can check it's overreach at the door, thank you very much. Or did this Republican administration suddenly decide it likes big government all of a sudden?
The marketplace has done nothing but shit the bed since Reagan. Laissez faire capitalism is nice, but it doesn't exist. The smart ones figured out how to rig the game and convince everyone else it ain't rigged a long time ago. Also it's a French word and we all know what that means. I mean, Hell, even Trump's plan only involves getting the illegals out and giving those jobs to black people. If we push numbers like 40 million, we're gonna run out of ambitious teens REAL quick. Also, automation is half the reason there are no jobs to begin with. I don't think my buddies out here in flyover country will appreciate corporate America giving more jobs to robots.
"Nor need to"
Ha! This guy. Of course we need to. I see you're having trouble seeing the downsides. Here, let me help. That's millions of hotels and motels not getting cleaned. That's millions of avocados not getting picked. That's millions of restaurant kitchens shuttering, nursing homes lying abandoned, law offices, accounting firms and banks desperately struggling to fill the numbers that can't be filled by people who just aren't there. This isn't an idealistic screed here. It's pure pragmatism. This is what is going to win 2032: which candidate can promise attracting more immigrants than the other? The demographic bubble is coming. When it pops, only the immigrants can save us. Okay, okay, take a breath before you split your sides. I know it's funny. Trust me, I know. It's also an avoidable fact. History has a killer sense of irony.
"Start shoveling, then tell me how that sentence sounds."
Sure, I'll tell you in a second but first get on this shovel.
Oh, silly me, how did I forget about the time Operation Wetback solved all our problems? Good thing it was so effective that we never had to worry about Mexicans ever again.
We CAN start rounding them up and tossing them back. Don't think we SHOULD though. I can think of a million better things to waste tax payer dollars on. It sounds like we agree on what the US' fundamental purpose isn't. Problem is, it doesn't have a fundamental purpose. It just is. Like water, man. Like the ocean. Whoa.
Funny you should mention Mexico unfucking itself. Everyone tends to forget we had our own gangster problem 90 some years ago. Mexico will figure it out, just like we did. A century from now, they might even be THE world power to beat. America will be the equivalent of Great Britian by then, I imagine. Still around, kind of, and only marginally involved with world affairs, but lost it's imperial holdings to Russia or more likely China. Hopefully the Mexicans have short memories or at the very least hold no ill will toward us. Can't imagine what living next to a vastly more powerful neighbor would be like if they hated our guts. Can't imagine that at all. Oop, there's that historic irony again. Man, it's going around!

Anonymous said...

"We ain't replacing 40 million people. Trade and immigration controls are sensible goals, but mass deportation is and always will be a pipe dream."

The Czechs might have a story or two to tell you.

https://infogalactic.com/info/Expulsion_of_Germans_from_Czechoslovakia

The Sudeten Germans made up roughly 24% of the population of Czechoslovakia at the time, ie. 2.4 million out of cca 10 million. They were expelled after WWII and those still living remain in Germany to this day. Various characters try shaming the Czechs about it from time to time, but the Czech response tends to be, "Meh. They sided with the invaders. They flew the invaders' flag. They wanted the invaders to invade. Now, they can be in the invaders' country."

Mass deportation can happen. The climate for it to become a reality ripens by the day.

What's 24% of 300 million, btw?

Aesop said...

If we're talking frequency, I'd say 2-3 per year is too high, though it's more like once a week or more.
Please list for the class the 47 mass shootings this year, to date. I'll wait.

If we're talking quantity, more than zero is probably too high.
Same rules: List please the societies where there was/is no crime, Big Bang-present. Since perfection is your standard.

Getting stabbed or run over ain't fun, but it sure beats getting shot. Blah blah blah... )
Dead is dead. 0 points.

There IS a dilemma. Boy oh boy is there. Total gun ban might work, but never get implemented because guns are too integral to our national identity.
Guns have fuck-all to do with "national identity", evidenced by nothing more than the fact that nearly half of the country doesn't own any, but self-defense is so integral it's a pre-existing natural law right recognized from the outset, millennia before our founding. Casey Stengel had a famous quote regarding that.

Hence the gridlock, hence the WWI yard by yard legislative dueling, hence the impasse etc etc. Again, gun ban don't work if there's a pipeline to the outside where guns can come in. It has to be all or nothing and it's never going to be all. Ever. All is impossible. It's too ingrained in our fibers. Hence, dilemma.
News flash: pre-literate tribesmen in Pakistan make AK-47s from scratch using farm tools and charcoal grills. They make cartridges with brass curtain rods. Gunpowder was invented by Chinamen out of shit you could scrounge on any back lot, before moveable type existed. You aren't banning jack or squat, because impossible. Deal with that reality.

Your solutions for dealing with mass shooters have potential, but it could also get way out of hand very quickly. See also, Somalia.
Somalia is an absence of law, not an absence of mass shootings. No points for confusing unbridled anarchic bedlam with an armed republic enjoying the highest continuous standard of living in world history. Bush league attempt.

I'm also concerned about rattlesnake bites while we're on the subject. I think we can do more to bring those numbers down. I feel like you keep bringing up these other lethal issues to downplay mass shootings. I don't care less about mass shootings just because more people die from choking alone in their homes. Let's work on all of those things!
Great. Solve diabetes, heart disease, cancer, and auto accidents first, then based on your legerdemain with those posers, get back to me about your aptness to go fucking with the Constitution and personal defense from criminals and such, let alone rogue governments, who by definition obey no laws.

Once they're over the border, YSGAF. No country on Earth is going to accept them. "Deal with your own issues, Merica!" The second we try to pull that crap is the second we discover how toothless we've become. We ain't Israel. We can't pull that shit without becoming North Korea 2: Only It's America This Time.
Their circus, their monkeys. They can accept repatriation of their own native criminal class voluntarily, or we can simply eject them from aircraft at altitude over their capitols. Which choice they elect to experience is a matter to me of complete and utter indifference, but the pay-per-view cable television rights could retire the national debt inside a year.
(cont.)

Aesop said...

(cont.)
I ain't footing no God damn bill. You want to pay for it? Set up a GoFuckMe page. The government can check it's overreach at the door, thank you very much. Or did this Republican administration suddenly decide it likes big government all of a sudden?
Last I looked, the XVIth Amendment was passed in 1913, and it was a Democrat who signed off on it. You want to repeal that, I'm all ears, but until you do, you'll pay for it, same as you have with every paycheck your entire life.
Or, you can be Thoreau, and work it off in prison instead. Your choice.


The marketplace has done nothing but shit the bed since Reagan. Laissez faire capitalism is nice, but it doesn't exist. The smart ones figured out how to rig the game and convince everyone else it ain't rigged a long time ago. Also it's a French word and we all know what that means. I mean, Hell, even Trump's plan only involves getting the illegals out and giving those jobs to black people. If we push numbers like 40 million, we're gonna run out of ambitious teens REAL quick. Also, automation is half the reason there are no jobs to begin with. I don't think my buddies out here in flyover country will appreciate corporate America giving more jobs to robots.
thanks for arguing against your own point. Own goal.
(cont.)

Aesop said...

(cont.)
"Nor need to"
Ha! This guy. Of course we need to. I see you're having trouble seeing the downsides. Here, let me help. That's millions of hotels and motels not getting cleaned. That's millions of avocados not getting picked. That's millions of restaurant kitchens shuttering, nursing homes lying abandoned, law offices, accounting firms and banks desperately struggling to fill the numbers that can't be filled by people who just aren't there. This isn't an idealistic screed here. It's pure pragmatism. This is what is going to win 2032: which candidate can promise attracting more immigrants than the other? The demographic bubble is coming. When it pops, only the immigrants can save us. Okay, okay, take a breath before you split your sides. I know it's funny. Trust me, I know. It's also an avoidable fact. History has a killer sense of irony.

Roomba stock skyrockets.
So does International Harvester, and they're suddenly running two shifts/day, forever.
(Look up why your cherry tomatoes are now oblong, and not round anymore. Pedro isn't picking them; the Uniblab 2000 is.)
Hotels and motels were spotless for decades before Juan and Maria swam here. History is an asskicker of reality that way.
Law offices empty? Be still, my beating heart.
Find me a bank with more than 4 people in it already, and I'll show you pictures of my pet unicorn. ATMs also never steal from the bank, and don't call in sick.
There's no demographic "bubble". There's simply a country that doesn't need to be the teat for the diseased, illiterate, halfwits of the Turd World to suck until the pig runs dry as a Oklahoma Dustbowl farm.
We seemed to be humming along just fine with 200M people barely a generation ago, with plenty of traffic on the freeways, and only needing 66% as much natural resources to make our way day to day.
All that requires is sending the freeloaders back, and watching the federal budget deficit zero out in a couple of decades, once the bloodsucking ticks are removed from the host.


"Start shoveling, then tell me how that sentence sounds."
Sure, I'll tell you in a second but first get on this shovel.
Oh, silly me, how did I forget about the time Operation Wetback solved all our problems? Good thing it was so effective that we never had to worry about Mexicans ever again.

We didn't, in fact, until 1965 - when we started letting the fuckers in the front door at 1M/yr, and they started climbing over the fence as well despite that largesse. You don't get to conflate 60 years as though it's all the same thing, no matter how convenient it is to your argument.
(cont.)

Aesop said...

(cont.)
Funny you should mention Mexico unfucking itself. Everyone tends to forget we had our own gangster problem 90 some years ago.
Yes, we did, so we shut the tap off to Italians, Jews, gypsies, and the other ravening hordes of criminals that created that gang problem from about 1930-1965.
So, let's try that again: end all immigration, legal and illegal, for forty years. I'll try to contain my rapturous joy.


Mexico will figure it out, just like we did. A century from now, they might even be THE world power to beat. America will be the equivalent of Great Britian by then, I imagine. Still around, kind of, and only marginally involved with world affairs, but lost it's imperial holdings to Russia or more likely China. Hopefully the Mexicans have short memories or at the very least hold no ill will toward us. Can't imagine what living next to a vastly more powerful neighbor would be like if they hated our guts. Can't imagine that at all. Oop, there's that historic irony again. Man, it's going around!
Mexico couldn't unfuck itself in 400 years. Exactly like it hasn't. Unless they get the revolution that using us as a tampon has prevented, and they kill off the crooked bastards throttling that country from the 1500s to the present. But since half the country is illiterate in Spanish as well as English, I'm not too worried about what they'll remember. If they could remember how to put on a condom 40M times a year, that would be the best thing they could do in the short term.

You're chopping, son, but no chips are flyin'.
But you've demonstrated why it takes twice as long to shoot down a line of nonsense as it does to type it in the first place.

The Freeholder said...

"Make Stupid Hurt Again"

I am so stealing that.

StarNinja said...

24%? I'd about the size of the new underground railroad. Give ot take a couple thousand. Luckily America ain't nothing like Czechville. I see a lot of entrepreneurial people pitching in to stop deporters. Also, we got maybe millions of square miles more country for people to hide in than central Europe. Not saying people won't try the deportation thing, heck they already have, but it'll still be a pipe dream.

Aesop said...

Let them do that.
Prison guards will be a growth industry, and ain't gonna be no underground railroad to protect migras when you're looking at the ass end of 10 years in the federal pen for your trouble, along with asset forfeiture of everything you own for playing that game.

One person can play Batman in the boondocks...for about five years.
Eric Rudolph got caught scrounging for food in a dumpster, and he's in SuperMax now.
This isn't 1860, and you can't hide 40M people up your own ass.
They'll be found, they'll rat you out, and then you'll be going to prison.
ROWYBS

StarNinja said...

I'm not gonna do your homework for you, chief. Re: standards, I don't think it reaches anywhere near perfection. I'm not asking for no crime/death/homelessness/blue balls, I just think we could be doing better about this whole mass shooting business.

"Dead is dead. 0 points."
Sorry, you didn't show your work. No credit.

"Guns have fuck all to with what America so American that we it's a stereotype across Planet Earth, evidenced by the fact that half of the country doesn't own any. Yes I know I don't think they're real Americans. They probably voted for Mary-J legalization and gay marriage, but damn it I'm making a point!"
Guns are in our blood. Our DNA even. When they stamp your certificate (birth or naturalization) you are entitled to said firearms. I know how we all feel about entitlements, but it says it right in Amendment numero two, just above Militias being well regulated. You can check if you want. I'll wait.

"You are aren't banning jack or squat because impossible"
That is a good summation of what I said, yes.

"Somalia isa no good. Ten points from Gryffindor."
Absence of law is what I was implying. Vigilance committees don't pop up in wellsprings of strong law enforcement trusted by the common folk, you know.

"Great, solve Diabetes, heart disease, cancer and other things that have nothing to do with mass shootings first."
My question was about mass shootings. Let's stay on topic please.
"Something about starting World War 3 by genociding men, women, and children."
We are the 'they' in your proposal. It's our circus and our monkeys. Lifting Mexico like a rug and shoving illegals under there won't solve that problem. It'll create a thousand more for us, but the original problem will remain. As far as solutions go, pretty damn ineffective.

StarNinja said...

I have no problem with taxes. I pay my fair share. My problem is the Flora and fauna of D.C. deciding to blow it on deportation, blow and hookers. In that order.

"Thank you for arguing against your own point."
Expand on this, please.

Anonymous said...

To StarNinja - we only have school shootings because schools are gun-free zones. They only started after the Gun Free School Zones act of 1990. Why was the act not rescinded after the result was seen?

StarNinja said...

"Hotels and motels were spotless before Juan and Maria swam here."
Yes, thanks to the Jacksons, Jeffersons, and Huxtables. But we as a country decided black folks had done their time so the jobs get shoved to the next rung down the ladder. At this moment in history it is Latinos and South Asians.

"ATMs never steal from the back or call in sick"
Yes, I'm sure ATM repairmen agree with that completely. Hidden costs, my friend. They're everywhere. Same goes for Roombas and Unilabs. Soon it'll be too expensive to maintain all this shit and then we'll be crawling back to Mexico looking cheap labor.
We we're indeed humming just fine a generation ago. The problem is that genragener got old and we don't have the numbers refill that roster. That's the bubble part. You can get rid of all the ticks you want, but that won't stop the gangrene. We can't afford to misdiagnose this any longer. The patient is dying. We need blood and plasma here stat. No, put the de-louser away, he's fading fast!

"You don't get to conflate 60 years as though it's all the same thing."
That's my line.

StarNinja said...

Shutting the tap ain't deporting, so works for me. You were saying?

"Mexico couldn't unfuck itself in 400 years."
Why? Because they're brown? There's nothing they can't do that we ccan.You will see them go through their own golden age in your lifetime, son. Just because they're a centruy behind us on the national lifecycle doesn't mean they'll never get there. I know things look like they'll go on forever the way they are. It's one of our limitations as a civilization. The British Empire felt the same way New Year's Day, 1900. Cut to New Year's Day, 2000 and you'll see a snapshot of our own future, if history is kind to us. You don't want to know what it will look like if they have pry our foreign bases from our cold dead hands.

"You've demonstrated why it takes twice as long to shoot down a line of nonsense as it does to type it in the first place."
Boy, you ain't kidding! I don't mind, though. Shooting down nonsense is a Civic duty.

StarNinja said...

Because your argument is flawed. School shootings have been happening since the plopped down the first log cabin schoolhouse. The issue is that their frequency is increasing. How do we solve it?

StarNinja said...

Again, what a waste of tax payer dollars. Private prison industry has hoovered enough cash from our pockets. Let's spend it on something worthwhile for God's sake.
People have done more facing worse charges. Remember, this is America. Full of brave and foolhardy folks in equal measure. Sometimes at once.

Aesop said...

The correct answer is there have not been anything like 47 shootings thus far this year, nor any other, nor any collection of same. There haven't been 47 mass shootings probably in the last 40 years. So it's 1-2@year, at worst.
Out of 300M people.
Out of 600M guns.
That's a 0.000000006666667% chance in any year, shading it to most favor your side.
1 in 150M per year
1 in 20M in a 70 year lifetime.
You have higher odds of dying in a plane crash (and we haven't had a fatality n one of those in the US in like 20 years), being struck by lightning, or winning the Powerball lotto pick on one ticket.
You couldn't do that math not because it was too hard, but because that reality demonstrates why this whole line of argument is nonsense in search of a purpose.

If you're demanding no mass shootings, that's perfection. QED. Math means you can't lie. There is no mathematical/numerical value that equals "sort of". "Zero" and "one" both have actual meanings not subject to revision by politically corrected doubletalk.

There haven't been any committees of vigilance here in 100 years and more, and even when they appeared, it was the rare exception, not the every day rule.
There have never been any vigilance committees in Somalia, because there are no laws there. If you can't tell black from white, you need an ophthamologist, not a philosopher.

There are no guns in my DNA. There is also no rhetorical immunity for nonsense.
We have guns here because we overthrew our tyrant some 240 years hence.
Pointing out the handicap of other nations doesn't make us bred to guns, it means we are sane and sensible. Arguing against sanity and reason is a poor choice.

Mass shootings are, as noted, the 5,000,000th leading cause of death in this country, after heart disease, diabetes complications, cancer, auto accidents, and 4,999,993 other things all far more pressing than fucking with the Constitution, let alone rights which pre-date its existence by some millennia. If you're going to try and solve the minutiae you can't solve, because the actually important things are too hard, you're already in too deep, and need to get out of the wading pool until you can successfully float in 2 inches of water.

Deportation is not shoving anyone under a rug.
It's putting their monkeys back in their zoo.
The only problem it creates for us is the potential to create a booming market in belted machinegun ammunition if they can't help climbing over a big, beautiful wall. As before, I'll try and restrain my unbounded joy at that prospect, whichever option they choose. This is the same reason no one here gives a flying fuck about how many people drown in Bangladesh floods every monsoon, or freeze in Siberian winters: their countries, their problems.

D.C. will spend your tax dollars as they see fit. If you have objections, write your congressweasel, and let us know how that works for you.

You can't argue that there will be massive shortage of workers from deporting Jose y Maria, and then simultaneously note that there is already massive unemployment among native-born American citizens. You just made the entire case for deporting every swinging Ricardo, on the spot, immediately. Well played.

You want to argue (but cannot) that we need 40M illegals, because we're so short of workers that employers are offering 25% over minimum wage, and yet there are still 40M unfilled positions from coast-to-coast right this minute (a situation that has happened never in US - nor indeed any other country's - national history, nor anything like.)

Aesop said...

I'm fine with Latinos and South Asian doing the work they can get.
I just ask that they come in legally, through the front door, after waiting their turn in line, like 43M other effing legal immigrants have since 1965.
Those who climb over the fence or swim the Rio Grande should be imprisoned at hard labor for five years, then deported, and barred legal entry for life.

Hidden costs get paid, like all bills do. That doesn't ergo require that the solution is to hire more illiterate peons who haven't got the sense not to shit on the lettuce they're picking, and then wipe up with their bare hands. When the costs get high enough, they'll either hire workers at market wages, or invent a better solution. We stopped transporting ourselves about in saddles and buggies because we found something better than a riding on horseback, even though they'd do the gig for hay and apples. Illegals are simply less needful than horses. Except to the greedy and short-sighted bastards at the Chamber of Commerce, who never shoveled their own horseshit in the first place, and don't live in the barrios they've filled.

Shutting the tap and deporting works better than either alone.
First you plug the holes, then you bail the boat. You don't skip either one.

No, Mexico can't unfuck itself because they're Mexicants, not Mexicans. They aren't 100 years behind us, they're 500 years behind us.
Most of their country is run by drug cartels, and all of it is fleeced by crooked officialdom, from the president to the lowest-paid cop walking a beat in BFZacatecas.

And throwing jackasses in prison for breaking the law is an excellent use of funds. But if you're inclined to parsimony, substituting a lengthy jail cell with a bullet in the head is always an available option guaranteed to cut prison costs.

You're shooting shit, and posting the nonsense. But you knew that.
You haven't hit anything you've aimed at since you started.
So, did you pay for the 5-minute argument, or the full hour?

StarNinja said...

I'm not demanding no mass shootings, but let's not make it easy for them for goodness sake. You want to hit diabetes and all those other health things so bad? Easy. Cut meat completely out of the American diet. We will face a dilemma there too, I'm afraid, because meat is a part of our DNA as much as guns are. What's more American than eating a steak dinner with a shotgun? Auto accidents could be handled by getting those 2 ton death machines off the road. Give freeways back to the military and reorient American society around walkable towns and cities with mass transit. Again, like gun bans, a massive undertaking with little chance of success given current sentiments. A lot of big issues in America are like that right now, actually. If you have ideas regarding healthcare or opiod addictions or any of the 5,000,000,000,000,000 problems we got going on I'm game to hear it. Still not gonna ignore mass shootings though. I don't think sensible gun laws are as impossible as Vegan America or Fuck Cars America. Maybe I'm just optimistic. Lives are on the line here, it's not just minutiae. Can't call time of death in the middle of scrubbing up just because it's hard. We gotta pull our sleeves up and get this done.

"Their country, their problem."
We made it our problem. NAFTA killed all the farms on that side of the border and now we're complaining that the thing we broke is leaking on us like a bunch of two year olds.
You don't get to ignore Monroe Doctrine or Banana Republic grand openings across a continent or Reagan's door buster sales on guns for Contras or the War on Drugs or any of it. All those migrants crowding out the donkey shows in Tijuana? That's our problems coming home to roost. That's Karma cocking its boot back and getting ready to shove it up our asses. Make no mistake, that big old stamp on the front of that wagon train reads "Made in America". Don't like it? Quit throwing shit in other people's sandboxes. Sooner or later it comes flying back with interest.
D.C. does what it likes with our money, this is true. That's why I vote out every shitweasal that puts "Deport 'em!" on their platform, like the idea came from Einstein's asshole itself. What about the roads, retard? How about schools that freaking work? DLTDHYAOTWO.

Ricardo's the only one in line for those jobs. Same for Rajeesh and Kumar in the tech sector. We got so many jobs lying around in this properous America Trump made. Why isn't anyone taking them? Don't you want to clean toilets for a dollar a day? Come on, it's a job, Jack! Anybody? Joe Six-pack left two days after starting cuz he couldn't handle the pay or the hours so there's plenty of openings. Anyone? Please! Help wanted! Help!

We don't need 40M illegals. We want 40M illegals. They're the only thing keeping the running of arcane machinery in the rump of the economy affordable. We lose that, we lose $5 avocados and Taco Tuesdays. Once they're gone, it's gonna hurt. Will we make the tough choice and live with the 80% pay cut we're essentially giving ourselves? Or will we crumple and go seeking out Mexico's cheap labor teats? Slide on in, there's plenty of room.

StarNinja said...

No argument about Legal entry. It's a-ok in my book. Anyone swimming the Rio grande either needs to get back into their time machine from 1952 or get locked up on principle, because nobody does that anymore. And they'll keep coming back. Prison time and legal entry bars won't change that.

"They'll either hire workers at market wages or they'll invent a better solu-"
Nope! Wrong. Any solution that hangs on the idea of "They'll think of something" is not a solution at all but an invocation of a future that doesn't exist. Put the wand away, this ain't the Air Force. We work with what we have in front us. Guesswork is for futurists, economists and Crystal ball fondlers. Clicking your heels together is a non-starter. Look at where the arrow points and it will lead you to demographic crisis and mad scrambles by every Civilized Nation to sponge up as many immigrants as it can. This is a numbers game and catapulting them over the wall is the opposite of helpful.

Mexico is technically 500 years ahead of us. His name was Cortez. Don't worry, this part is open book. The nation of Mexico as we know it today started circa 1917. That's about, oh let me see, a century behind our founding? Give or take a few decades? They're going through all the their stumbling blocks as a modern nation just like we did. Right now they're figuring out the Roaring Twenties (complete with Drug Barons and Media tycoons) and Chicago style mafias. Once the people get sick of it, the wheel will turn and the crime crusaders will be elected to clean up that mess in short order. Then, who knows? They may have their own 1950s prosperity complete with Mexican Christmas Story and Mexican Red (White and Blue) scare. "There could be an American living next to you! Gringo could be anywhere!"


"You're shooting shit and posting nonsense. No you are! No you!"
I appreciate your opnions, but ad hominem ex nihilo and Deus ex Rectum don't make what I'm saying untrue. Funnier maybe, but as they say, you can look it up.

Arguing's free, but if you want me to charge, come by during office hours. No, I don't make house calls.

Allen L. said...

I know how this song already ends. We must do something, about guns because, reasons. The answer is no, and will always be no.

StarNinja said...

Ain't it the truth, brother

Aesop said...

So much for the premise of the argument:

America doesn’t lead the world in mass public shootings. We’re not even close. Just last month, a school shooting in Crimea, Russia, claimed 20 lives and wounded 65 others. But Americans usually don’t hear about such events.

The Crime Prevention Research Center, of which I am president, recently finished updating a list of mass public shootings worldwide. These shootings must claim four or more lives in a public place. Following the FBI definition, the shootings we list are carried out simply with the intention of killing. We exclude gang fights because they tend to be motivated by battles for drug turf. Murders that arise from other crimes are also excluded.

Then there are politically motivated attacks, either by or against governments. Some shootings occur in the course of guerrilla wars for sovereignty. These attacks do not meet our definition. This meant excluding a lot of very deadly shootings such as those in the Russian-Chechen conflict. The Russian Beslan School siege of Sept. 1, 2004, left 385 dead and another 783 wounded. In a three-day siege of the Dubrovka Theater in Moscow in 2002, 130 were killed and more than 450 were wounded.

Over the course of 18 years, from 1998 to 2015, our list contains 2,354 attacks and at least 4,880 shooters outside the United States and 53 attacks and 57 shooters within this country. By our count, the U.S. makes up 1.49 percent of the murders worldwide, 2.20 percent of the attacks, and less than 1.15 percent of the mass public shooters. All these are much less than America’s 4.6 percent share of the world population.

Of the 97 countries where we identified mass public shootings, the U.S. ranks 64th per capita in its rate of attacks and 65th in fatalities. Major European countries, such as Norway, Finland, France, Switzerland and Russia, all have at least 25 percent higher per capita murder rates from mass public shootings.


While Americans are rightly concerned by the increased frequency and severity of mass public shootings, the rest of the world is experiencing much larger increases in per capita rates of attack. The frequency of foreign mass public shootings since 1998 has grown 291 percent faster than in the U.S.


From that right-wing media bastion, the Chicago Tribune's editorial page:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/commentary/ct-perspec-mass-shooters-russia-public-shootings-thousand-oaks-mercy-hospital-chicago-1121-story.html

Game. Set. Match.

TiredPoorHuddled Masses said...

Who's still worried about mass shootings? We got much bigger things to worry about like repairing our roads and fixing our immigration system.