Saturday, February 15, 2020

Dear Gilligan,

























For those all butthurt elsewhere because I'm a "condescending cocksucker know-it-all", read comments here, like this gem today, and walk a mile in my shoes, before you pop off.

"You can't wash your hands every time you touch something. You can't wear a face mask 24/7 and if you did the likely hood is that you would become infected FROM the dirty face mask. AND as you pointed out, the virus will get here and go pandemic. So what it really comes down to is most everyone will be exposed and some will die, some will get pretty sick, some will get a little sick. So explain again why we should turn our world upside down in a futile effort to not catch this virus? IN FACT catching it early, before the hospitals are overwhelmed, might just be the best thing that could happen to you."
The jokes writes themselves. But as Senior Drill Instructor warned us once,
"There are no stupid questions, only stupid people."

(6,2 and pick 'em, some wiseass regular reader made that whole post up and threw it against the wall just to watch the fun, but I'll treat it as legit and use it as a Teachable Moment.)

Let's take it point by point:

You can't wash your hands every time you touch something.
1) Yes, you can. Unless you're a quadriplegic.
2) You could wear gloves, and just wash your hands when you take them off.
3) Millions of people do 1 and 2 every day. They're called medical workers. Handwashing is not a superpower.
4) No one told you to wash your hands "every time you touch something". Just before you stick your fingers in your eyes, up your nose, in your mouth, before you eat your food, and after you wipe your behind. Just like we teach preschoolers. Try that, instead of "every time you touch something", and see if you can manage it.

You can't wear a face mask 24/7, and if you did, the likely hood [sic] is that you would become infected FROM the mask.
1) No one told you to do that either.
2) If you don't have one now, you'll probably never get one, because they're mostly made in China, and they've declared them a "strategic national resource". So you probably won't be able to get any for a year or more, at least from the world's #1 manufacturer.
3) You only need to wear one when you go out in public, if a pandemic breaks out.
3a) If a pandemic breaks out, you shouldn't be going out in public to begin with, unless it's unavoidable.
3b) If it's unavoidable, you should be wearing a mask then, not 24/7.
3c) If you have a job where it's unavoidable, a mask should be provided for you by your employer. If it's not, it's not unavoidable. See 3a, above.
4) When you wear a mask, you wear it because of an actual risk. Unless you live in a homeless encampment, 24/7 wear is recockulous.
4a) If you live in a homeless encampment, you're already screwed, and coronavirus is probably the least of your worries.
4b) But if that's the case, how did you get on the internet?
5) If you wore a mask 24/7, you'd roll over it in your sleep, and ruin it.
6) Straw men always make for stupid arguments.

AND as you pointed out, the virus will get here and go pandemic.
1) -100% for reading comprehension. I pointed out neither thing.
2) The virus is already here.
3) Whether it becomes a pandemic is an open question. The likelihood is high, but not anything like certain. Yet.

So what it really comes down to is most everyone will be exposed and some will die, some will get pretty sick, some will get a little sick.
1) No one knows how many will be exposed to it.
2) 3% of those exposed will die, give or take.
3) Virtually all the other 97% exposed will get sick. How "little" that is depends on a lot of things.
4) An unknown number will be sick enough to hospitalize, some of them in the ICU. IDK about you, but my co-pay, even with gold-plated Blue Cross, runs about 20% for hospitalization, which runs $2K/day, and $10-15K/day for ICU. Maybe you're rich, but ICU is usually several days to a week, and I can think of better things to do with a spare $2-10K.
5) You'll also pass your sickness along to family, friends, and co-workers, usually giving it to 2-4 of them. Including kids or older adults, who may die because you were too lazy to wash your hands.
6) See if you can guess why none of the other folks will want to work or play with you, come the day.

So explain again why we should turn our world upside down in a futile effort to not catch this virus?
1) It's not futile.
2) See 6, above.
3) If it gets big enough, you probably won't be given a choice.
Read this. It's straight from the CDC. TL;DR? Public health authorities have the ability and the will to cancel all sorts of things in the interest of public health. Schools, public gatherings, closing businesses, etc. And if that happens, most businesses, and all people brighter than you, will decide that going to work or leading a "normal" life isn't worth the risk. And if nothing's open, you're not getting gas, you're not going anywhere, and you're not doing anything. As in the case of China, that may be enforceable, as are all government edicts, at the end of a gun barrel. So then, you're either shot, or in jail, with a bunch of fellow rugged individuals, and no mask. Best wishes on your chances then.
4) "Turning your life upside down" will greatly inhibit the spread of the disease, and make it far less likely that it propagates wild and unchecked to the entire population. See 1, directly above.
5) "Turning your life upside down" will probably save a number of lives. Which most folks would agree was worthwhile, unless you're a sociopath.
6) I'm not saying this is you. But if anyone is a sociopath, they probably deserve to get infected, and hopefully they'll be in the lucky 3% who'll die. But the Universe is random, and we probably won't get that lucky.

IN FACT, catching it early, before the hospitals are overwhelmed, might just be the best thing that could happen to you.
1) Catching it early will guarantee you hordes of attention from the CDC you really don't want. In a jabbing you ten times a day and cramming things into bodily orifices you'd rather avoid, while being in guinea pig prison, sort of way.
2) I assure you, those of us who work in hospitals have a finely-honed radar detector for @$$holes who deserve the problems they have, and we talk about it amongst ourselves all the time. And we really, really, really don't have one fuck left to give for people so narcissistic as to live out the hypothetical you expressed. Please believe me when I suggest that at the leading edge of a pandemic, you do not want to be That Guy.
3) What ever makes you think hospitals aren't overwhelmed now, even without coronavirus pandemic?
4) If you're not dying, you're going to be kicked the hell out after minimal treatment. Not least of which because there isn't much we can do. Ask me how I know this.
5) If you are dying, you're going to ICU, and if you're that sick, you're already pretty well fucked, at that point.




54 comments:

lineman said...

Well then you have this which if true then doesn't matter if you catch it and get through it because you can catch it again...https://www.zerohedge.com/health/hubei-doctors-warn-even-deadlier-coronavirus-reinfection-causing-sudden-heart-attacks

Charles in VA said...

@ Aesop,

Being a "condescending cocksucker know-it-all" is your most endearing quality to me!

Birds of a feather, I suppose.

It's definitely the largest part of why I keep coming back. If you weren't doing it, I'd have to go to the trouble of doing it myself. BTDT. WDIA if I had too.

Keep up the Yeoman's work!

Anonymous said...

No, that’s not true. Medical workers wear gloves in medical situations. They don’t wear them to the store, the restaurant or at home. NO ONE washes their hands hundreds of times a day yet we touch something hundreds of times a day.
Almost the only people who wear face masks in public are immigrants from Asia where it is a “thing”. I would bet even you don’t wear a face mask every time you are out in public.
Shouldn’t go out in public unless it’s unavoidable. Seriously? Do you have children or a spouse? The only person who can simply choose to not go out in public for weeks or months has never been seen.
It is futile. You yourself have explained why. If it becomes pandemic and because it is so infectious most people will be exposed to it. And those who hide in the basement for six months will be exposed to it when they come out to see if it’s over.
Your last segment showed that you yourself realize that we are fucked. You are agreeing with me but because you are innately disagreeable your knee jerk reaction is to list all the ways you disagree and throw in a few four letter insults for punctuation.

John said...

Yup, confirmation that it is already to late to get a (actual anti-viral) face/surgical face mask. This afternoon I made the rounds of the local pharmacies and places like Walmart, nada. My personal pharmacy confided in me that they haven't had a shipment in a month and at this point don't expect to receive one.

The Curad brand anti-viral is being quoted at $12-$15 a piece, not for the box of ten but for each mask, and if pursued they are all "Out of Stock". Even Amazon. Other online sites such as major medical supply houses are also now displaying "Out of Stock".

Meaning that nursing homes that offer the masks to all visitors during flu season (now!) won't and what that will do to the fatality rates is scary.

Would that there was a single ass to kick for the "All Supply Lines Point to China" decision made many years ago.

Good luck all! Hope to see you on the other side.

Charles in VA said...

@ John,

You're named after Jesus' brother...the ONLY Disciple NOT to be put to death...and you have less faith than Thomas?

Walk the walk, bro. It's ALL Good.

Charles in VA said...

@ anonymous.

"We walk by Faith, not by sight"

Embrace it...or not.

Charles in VA said...

also @ anonymous,

Thank you for "dis-personing me" by claiming I do not exist...putz.

Your world is a bubble and you don't even realize it.

Widen your horizons. There are entire CULTURES within your OWN country you know absolutely NOTHING about, you arrogant ass!

Yep. We're irrelevant...until we ARE.

Guess what? When it DOES become relevant? YOU aren't welcome. So...jump up your own ass and look for a clue.

Aesop said...

@Anon 1:59P

Medical workers wear gloves because it makes sense, to break the chain of infection.
If you think, once this becomes a pandemic, that you're going to go on with business as usual, I have a bridge to sell you.

So at that point, you can change your behavior, because reality, or you can let reality change it for you. Suture self.

This isn't magic. You either wash your hands, or you get sick.
You avoid crowds, or you get sick.
If you're going to choose "B", you're not tall enough for the internet.

You think your kids will be going to school?
Go back and read the gorram CDC statement of intent for how they're going to deal with this. Let me know when the penny drops.
No school.
No work.
No movies.
No malls.
No stadiums.
No nothing that isn't vital.
This has the potential for a massive disruption, whether you like it or not.
If you want to go out by yourself, when most businesses are closed, most employment is closed, schools are closed, etc., best wishes. If there are quarantines, unless you're doing something like emergency services, food market retail, or gasoline, you're probably going to be pulled over, and run in, or escorted home. If they're nice about it.
Damned little of anything of any type may be moving.
China apparently has entire provinces, millions of people, on virtual house arrest.
The person who can't go out in public for as long as this lasts is called everyone, if TPTB so decree. It won't be a superpower then, either.

And anyone at that point who thinks they're Special, and that the sun shines out of their ass, will find that the authorities are their least worry. Your neighbors, at that point, are more likely to stone you to death for the common good. So unless you live of 100 acres out in BFEgypt, you might want to lay in a supply of cards, board games, DVDs, and books, to keep you entertained, along with stocks of food and water.

And evidently, your reading comprehension is zero, because I threw out a total of 3 or 4 four-letter words, none of them - not a one - as insults. I'm not innately disagreeable, I just have no tolerance for fools parading their foolishness.

BTW, "Gilligan" is eight letters.
If the bucket hat fits, wear it.

Anonymous said...

Interesting anecdote.

About two weeks ago here in Vancouver I went looking for masks and hand sanitizer. I checked several drug stores and two hardware stores and found nothing. Zip. Damn. Well, that one's on me.

So I was waiting at a Skytrain station and this Chinese woman was standing nearby with an N95 mask on. I asked her where she got hers because I couldn't find any. She said her workplace gave them out. So I laughed and said I better find a better workplace. She reached into her bag and gave me one. Just like that. So nice.

So I have one mask thanks to a Chinese person sitting in my medicine cabinet. I'm wondering what the circumstances will get to be where I feel I actually have to use the thing.

Anonymous said...

When this first broke, we listened to our host here, and presto, 200 N95 masks for 400 bux arrived LAST week. Yeah. Got plenty of soap too.

Thank You Aesop

Charles in VA said...

@ anon@ 3:38 PM

I got 6 I'll sell for 50 bucks each.

You in?

LOL!

Charles in VA said...

@ Aesop @ 2:38 PM

Rainbows continually shoot out MY ass, I DO live in a metaphorical Bumfuk, Egypt environment, and I'd be in sad shape if I had to rely on cards and board games to entertain me.

My entertainment consists of watching my garden grow, watching animals garotte themselves in my snares and waiting for whatever is foolish enough to enter my considerable field of fire.

But your point IS well taken. I just enjoy immensely being the exception to the rule.

Life is GOOD!

Be well!

nick flandrey said...

" I would bet even you don’t wear a face mask every time you are out in public.
Shouldn’t go out in public unless it’s unavoidable. Seriously? Do you have children or a spouse? The only person who can simply choose to not go out in public for weeks or months has never been seen."

--jebus dude, that level of stubborn ignorance is almost breathtaking. Your normalcy bias is cranked to 11.

Once it gets out EVERYTHING CHANGES. You don't have a job to go to. The stores are empty so no point in going there. Spouse is home with the kids, because there isn't any school and she doesn't want them to get sick and die. She's not going out then is she? And yeah, if you have to go out, you do what the chinese are doing which is wear a mask, wash your hands, avoid gatherings.

Look at china right now. Go out without a mask? Get beaten and arrested. Wash your hands and avoid crowds OR DIE. F'in hell man, look at the video footage of the streets. There is NO ONE out and about unless they're looking for food or spraying mystery smoke on streets. I've been to China, and 3am was just as busy on the street as 3pm, and that was freaking BUSY. The big cities are all 3 shift towns, and never stop. Those pictures are freaking me the hell out because it's like everyone is already dead. We're talking about people who eat every meal on the street, or buy just enough to eat today. They have tiny apartments, with tiny fridges. Everyone might have had 50 pounds of rice when this started, but that's got to be gone now. Where are the hungry crowds?

If you're plan is stay home and eat squirrel by yourself, how is that different from what is being discussed? You, alone, self quarantined. vs the rest of us doing the same thing, only we'll have masks, antibiotics, OTC meds, and some idea what's going on in the world.

Ask the people that didn't get off Galveston or Bolivar early enough before the storm hit- oh yeah, can't cuz a bunch of them died. Ask the people who didn't leave the World Trade Center, but instead listened to the calming words about how everything will be alright- oh right, can't cuz they decided trying to fly was better than burning to death.

Why WOULDN"T you take a warning seriously? If you don't want to, fine, but shut the hell up so other people don't make the same mistake.

nick

Anonymous said...

Speaking of gilligan:

http://xf.timebomb2000.com/xf/index.php?threads/main-coronavirus-thread.566780/post-7590789

(original source: http://www.kaixian.tv/gd/2020/0203/279883_2.html)

Yeah, it's sourced in china. Frankly I'm more interested in what aesop thinks: Re possibly being gilligans by resusing infected masks that are either possibly no good any more.

Snippet: (not my translation, original source not in english, not my area of knowledge, therefore, take with a grain of salt until someone else who knows chimes in)

"Jin Xiangyu: For ordinary people, no. The disinfection method adopted in the mask production process is ethylene oxide gas disinfection, which cannot be achieved by ordinary households. Moreover, the mask continuously absorbs the water vapor exhaled by the human body during use, which gradually causes the charge loss of the filter layer and the decrease of the adsorption capacity. It cannot be recovered even after disinfection and drying, and it will not provide a good protective effect. Under the current epidemic conditions, disinfection and reuse of disposable anti-virus masks should not be promoted.

Although medical surgical masks and medical N95 masks are both "disposable", from the designer's point of view, ordinary people do not need to use a protective mask before throwing them away unless they go to hospitals, large supermarkets or contact with suspected patients. It can be used two or three times to reduce the consumption of mask resources."

full translation of link @ the forum post linked above.

... I wonder if those n95 rated scarves for frequent flyers are still a thing ...

Anonymous said...

"I wonder if those n95 rated scarves for frequent flyers are still a thing ..."

Is that what those things are? Noticed them when I flew to visit family this Christmas.

My seatmate was wearing one as well. I just thought she was being oddly stylish. She didn't seem to take to my friendly attempts at conversation too much. I'm just a friendly guy in general. Thought she was a bit stuck up. Guess she just didn't want to die. Understandable. Priorities.

Charles in VA said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
The Freeholder said...

According to this video, 5 million left Wuhan before the quarantine. I don't know where he got that number, but it would help explain the lack for starving folks, the lack of folks and why this is so widespread so quickly within China.

Given the timing, the focus of infection and a few other things, it appears men were involved. Maybe someday we'll find out.

Unknownsailor said...

If this thing goes pandemic, I am staying home, and praying the power and internet stays on. No need for a mask for a one of one self-quarantine.

Now is the time to go get enough food to last a month, while the trucks are still moving. Once that stops, every grocery store in every decent sized city in the country gets emptied in hours, and if you don't already have food stockpiled by then, you won't get any more for weeks.

I don't expect water to shut off, but if this goes pandemic I do expect a national 3 week forced vacation for everyone except "essential personnel."

Charles in VA said...

@unknownsailor

If you want to go there, your math is off. It ain't gonna be 3 weeks. It'll be 3 fucking MONTHS...at a MINIMUM! I'd plan on 6 months.

Is it weird that that doesn't scare me in the least?

Charles in VA said...

Jesus, Aesop! All these fucking assholes seem to actually WANT to die! It's like they're looking for the first off ramp to oblivion.

let's all play "who's the last to die?"!

WTF is WRONG with humanity these days?

Apparently common sense is NOT winning the day. Once all the dead are buried from the Kung Flu, how do we live with these retards? Shouldn't we kill them for the good of the species?

Maybe we should be digging a MUCH bigger hole and investing in lime futures?

Or am I the only one disenchanted with the Matrix?

I think I'm seeing the logic behind behind the global gun grab now.

OPEN BORDERS! We can't impede the progress of the Angel of Death!

FUCK US ALL.

Charles in VA said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Charles in VA said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Stealth Spaniel said...

My local friendly paint store, Sherwin Williams, sold -140- N100 masks to one guy while I was in there. Painter? Could be. Several other people in the store were upset that one guy got the entire shipment. I was just surprised the Sherwin Williams still had any to sell.
Everybody working on that water and food stockpile? A few boxes of ammo might be nice also.

Anonymous said...

You guys in the US need to be more concerned about China retaliating for this attack.

Anonymous said...

Prep now while you can.

I noticed my local grocery chain has their store brand vegetables, tomato sauce and soup on sale for 49 cents a can. The vegetables and tomato sauce are OK. The soup is not to my taste. They also have a special on Lysol wipes and Gatorade. Another chain has Chicken of the Sea tuna for 49 cents a can too.

Buy a couple dozen extra cans of foods you like when they are on sale. Dry Pasta and rice keep well, Ragu and Prego keep well too. Buy the water, soda, Gatorade, beer and booze you like too. Prep TP, Kleenex, paper towels and the like too. Find the sales, buy enough for a few months. Soap and toothpaste too. If everything goes well, then you can just eat what you stocked up, and not have to buy it from the store in July.

Anonymous said...

@Charles @6:24

Jeeze, dude. You sound like my dad when I was a kid and he'd be six cans in on his angry juice. Maybe cut back a bit. You know, for family's sake.

Anonymous said...

You guys in the US need to be more concerned about China retaliating for this attack.

What would be the point of said concern?
Something good going to happen if everyone is concerned enough about hypothetical Chinese retaliation?
Sounds like wasted energy to me.

John said...

One last note, when I went to pick up my prescription the druggist apologized for having to fill it with twice the number of a smaller pill. He was out of stock for the regular size and had no expectation of receiving it soon. So, that's a pill that comes from China! I expect we'll all be seeing more of this.

Damn Richard Nixon for going to China!

Bear Claw Chris Lapp said...

Charles thinks he is safe in canuck land give him a rest.

Ray - SoCal said...

@Aesop - a zerohedge article and comments on an article at https://wattsupwiththat.com/ suggested China may be getting hit worse hit with the Coronavirus due to smoking and the high amount of pollution damaging lungs. Your thoughts?

Thanks for the great information. Your posts on Ebola were the best around.

This post I found to be one of the better ones in CoranaVirus out there:
https://wattsupwiththat.com/2020/02/14/wuhan-coronavirus-wuwt-update/

Aesop said...

@Ray,

It's certainly possible, but the underlying questions are always the same:
1) How many cases does China actually have?
2) Of what?
3) How many of them have died?

And there are still no answers.

Ray - SoCal said...

@Aesop

Thanks for your reply!

Taiwan Tv is having nonstop coverage of the CoronaVirus on the news program my wife watches. Their vp was in charge of their SARS response.

My local Chinese bank is at 50% staff wearing masks. Last week it was 2 staff.

nick flandrey said...

Monday morning in Hong Kong...

"Hubei province, the epicentre of the deadly coronavirus outbreak
, announced Sunday that it will impose tough new travel restrictions on all residents in the province to stop the spread of the disease.

Under the new rules, all businesses will close and the province’s 58 million people will not be able to leave their residential community or village.

No vehicles or visitors should be allowed into any residential community or villages unless “necessary”.

Hubei has also banned all vehicles from the road with the exception of police cars, ambulances, those transporting essential goods, and other authorised vehicles.

Crowd numbers will be limited in stores that are allowed to remain open and there will be “collective coordination” of people permitted to leave their homes to buy necessities.

“Disease control of the province has entered an important and difficult period,” the provincial government said in its announcement. “The situation is still grim and to cut transmission effectively and deter the trend of contagion … here are the new requirements.”"


--commies gonna commie, and oppressors gonna oppress...
--there are a LOT more videos of beatings and arrests coming out of china than there were last week. When the commies get desperate, they revert to what they know, beatings and arrests.

n

https://www.scmp.com/news/china/politics/article/3050879/no-mahjong-no-card-games-hubei-province-full-lockdown-china

nick flandrey said...

Banknotes are filthy, I'd be wearing gloves first....

This guy(supposed shopkeeper in wuhan) in china gives "money laundering" a new twist....

https://twitter.com/i/status/1229073578227838977


Waddaya think? 5 minutes at a full rolling boil, longer at high altitude??

n

nick flandrey said...

We may not have reliable numbers, but we do have anecdotal video, clearly in china somewhere, and clearly WAY past 'not good'.

https://twitter.com/i/status/1229066399760429057

n

Anonymous said...

Ray, I never thought about Banking.

That is a profession where I would want to be wearing a mask and gloves, and be wiping down my counter and the keyboards about every other customer. And it is essential if we want the economy to keep rolling along. We are still talking about the Bank Holiday from the Depression.

nick flandrey said...

Japan might have community contagion…

“At least 59 cases have now been confirmed, including more than a dozen among the hundreds of Japanese nationals and their relatives repatriated from Wuhan, China, the epicentre of the outbreak.
…..
With the rise in local infections, Kato warned the country was ‘entering a new phase.’

‘We are seeing infection cases that we are unable to trace back their transmission routes,’ he said

‘We want to ask the public to avoid non-urgent, non-essential gatherings. We want elderly and those with pre-existing conditions to avoid crowded places.”


nick

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8009967/Americans-leave-quarantined-Japan-ship-virus-cases-hit-355.html

Marty said...

I am sick of the folks who say that they don't care if the get it/won't do anything to protect them selves/telling me Just the Flu or it is not as bad as the flu, or I am over reacting, this WuFlu is coming like a train. If you don[t want to protect yourself stay away from me and don't ask for a pail of food or a bucket of cleaning supplies dog food MREs you know stuff you can pick up at CVS or Publix right now for basically free compared to what it will cost in a month or so


Even if it were limited to Hubi province China, which it isn't it will destroy our Supply chain from Red China,

But hey this Just in time delivery of Red China made shit is a great business plan..... We can always depend on picking up ChiCom made goods you know the stuff that gutted the us manufacturing industry, at Walmart, the low price leader and its ware house on wheels right?

Anonymous said...

Marty:
No one is saying they don't care. What I am saying is you cannot protect yourself 24/7. It is literally impossible. If it becomes pandemic you will be exposed to this virus and there isn't enough handwashing, gloves and face masks to wear 24/7 for 6 months to a year. You are whistling past the graveyard. To claim you are protecting yourself shows you do not understand how highly infectious airborne diseases proliferate. What you think is protection is illusion.

Aesop said...

Fluent nonsense.
Like most virus infections, coronavirus is not an airborne pathogen.

Don't throw the terms out if you don't understand them.

That's also why this is easily defeatable, because you're not going to be out and playing in it for very long.

So when you set up the pieces wrong for the game, you're going to lose every time.
Even annual pandemic flu doesn't infect everyone, so stop talking nonsense.

Anonymous said...

"Like most virus infections, coronavirus is not an airborne pathogen."

Why are they recommending airborne precautions?

Anonymous said...

"coronavirus is not an airborne pathogen."

So, grasshopper, why the face masks? Huh?

Anonymous said...

"So, grasshopper, why the face masks? Huh?"

Not why the face masks...
droplet precautions require face masks too.
Why the N95 face masks, specifically?
(that's the airborne precaution mask.

Aesop said...

Because of droplet precautions.
A cough or sneeze, as well as vomiting, can throw aerosolized infectious particles out up to 25 yards, and if you're within range with your unprotected mouth hanging open...you figure it out.

Airborne precautions are reserved for lighter-than-air pathogens that can blow around the air you breathe and float there for a long time, and become inhaled.

Aerosol droplets, generally being heavier than air, settle to the surface within a few minutes.

When the mortality risk of transmission is higher than average (Ebola), or the correct level is unknown (especially because the actual pathogen is unknown), the general rule is to go with the more restrictive (which is airborne) level of precaution until the correct level is established.

That you're asking the questions is good, but it also shows you didn't know any of that. You could have answered the questions with a mouseclick.
https://www.cdc.gov/infectioncontrol/guidelines/isolation/precautions.html

Aesop said...

And N95 is the level of filtration that will eliminate both bacteria, and aerosol droplets.
It has nothing to with being "airborne" level of filtration, per se, it has to do with the fact that the actual pathogens you're filtering for (TB, chicken pox, measles, etc.) are large enough as bacteria or viruses contained in water droplets, that an N95 will effectively block them.

Period.

Anonymous said...

"And N95 is the level of filtration that will eliminate both bacteria, and aerosol droplets.
It has nothing to with being "airborne" level of filtration, per se, it has to do with the fact that the actual pathogens you're filtering for (TB, chicken pox, measles, etc.) are large enough as bacteria or viruses contained in water droplets, that an N95 will effectively block them"


I'm having trouble understanding this paragraph above.
As you surely must know, TB is a far larger pathogen than any virus (such as the other things you mentioned).
It has airborne precautions because...it is an airborne pathogen.
Most viruses, by contrast, don't have those precautions because the droplets which contain them are too large to hang around in the air long.
By contrast, this particular coronavirus is different.
You think this detail insignificant?

Aesop said...

You're assuming facts not in evidence anywhere.

The fact that coronavirus is found in aerosolized droplets (like any number of viruses; this is hardly novel. FFS, there's a whole list in the CDC Appendix A referenced above, including any 700 strains of influenza every year) which are large enough to be caught by an N95 filter is exactly why that's what's recommended. It has nothing to do with how long they stay in the air, it has to do with how far they fly when sick people with the hygienic manners of barnyard animals and a Turd world 3rd-grade drop-out understanding of science sneeze and cough on you. Ask me how I know.

There's no secret truth hiding out there, nor some surprise transmission mode.
The guidelines call for N95 because that's what works.

Non-N95 masks leak, and filter out nothing. The only reason we use those dumbass comfort masks in a healthcare setting, going back decades, is to put on patients to keep their nasty sh*t from flying through the air when they're in common areas and coughing or sneezing.

For PPE, it's always N95, minimum, or better.

That's it.

Charles in VA said...

@ Aesop,

Admittedly, I'm no virologist or genetic engineer. That being said, this sounds and looks like pretty compelling evidence that this Kung Stew was cooked up in a lab...by the Chinese military in Wuhan.

"There is no way in nature that the Bat coronavirus could fortuitously acquire the HIV genetic sequences, without causing a mutation of the Virus Envelope. The ONLY way the virus envelope could obtain the HIV genetics and still remain 100% identical to the 2018 sample, is if the HIV genes were added in a laboratory."

The article has a link to the complete study. It also suggests that it is, indeed, capable of airborne transmission...ie: through the evaporative process of sewer lines and storm drains.

https://halturnerradioshow.com/index.php/en/news-page/news-nation/proof-the-novel-coronavirus-infecting-the-world-is-a-military-bio-weapon-developed-by-china-s-army

This might explain why the virus is (apparently) so much more deadly to gooks than it is to other ethnic groups.

Anonymous said...

"For PPE, it's always N95, minimum, or better."

Interesting. Are there other healthcare providers in other states who might weigh in here?
I worked in Texas, New Mexico, and Florida and only used a N95 for TB patients.
Droplet precautions were always those "dumbass comfort" masks.
This was up to around six years ago, so maybe in the past 6 years things have changed.

Aesop said...

You won't have any problem finding states and hospitals where the PPE was selected by dumbasses on the basis of cost, rather than practical effectiveness, was still at the dumbass level.

Ask around in Dallas about how that worked for Ebola, and compare, e.g., the level of PPE recommended by the pontificating gasbags at the CDC, vs. the level of PPE recommended by MSF for people working in actual Ebola Treatment Centers in Africa, based on hard-earned lessons.

See if you can spot a trend.

Anonymous said...

You won't have any problem finding states and hospitals where the PPE was selected by dumbasses on the basis of cost, rather than practical effectiveness, was still at the dumbass level.

You've stated that N95 masks are the standard for non airborne precautions.
So...Whether they are "dumbasses" or no, that's not really the point.
The point is, N95 masks are the standard for coronavirus and that isn't typical.

Anonymous said...

@ Aesop: your tirades remind me of my DI's and a few salty Marines. Its nice to have your head on straight and be correct most of the time. Sometimes it sucks. There will always be those with less G2, S2, and S4 skills that will get upset that you are correct yet again.

24h with a mask on? Try 18-24h in full MOPP gear in the desert. These things can be done but it sucks.. and is rarely needed.

@Charles in VA, 1744 - if this goes full pandemic I suspect the ratio of common sense/population will increase.

Aesop said...

N95s are the standard for respiratory protection, have been for years any place with common sense, and that is typical.
Moving the goalposts won't cut it, and neither will be an Appeal To Stupidity ("everybody else is jumping off a cliff, so...").
I've worked at 12 hospitals in the last 5 years, and N95s sit on every facility's isolation supply cart, and are and have been used for a decade and more.

If that makes too much sense for you, try tying a handkerchief over your mouth, and let us know how that works out for ya.

I've got 25 years' experience doing this for a living, and you're not going to bamboozle your way to getting it right because of some horsesh*t you read yesterday on Google.

Charles in VA said...

Even those few folks I know who own top grade NBC gas masks or SCBA don't have enough filters or canned air to last 3 months...

So IF an N95 mask proves ineffective against this bug, we're ALL screwed regardless.

And I think that's Aesop's point in a nut shell.

Spend your time worrying about shit that you actually have some control over and leave the rest to God.