h/t Brad Lena
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| Turns out you could make a "Hitler Rants" parody about Nazi Germany blowing up the NordStream pipelines that would be miles more accurate than any codswallop about "Biden did it". |
For all those "America Worst" folks busy shoving the U.S. forward as the Most Likely Suspect in the Baltic shenanigans, comes another inconvenient bit of harsh reality, this one from the Asia Times.
Far more plausible than "the U.S. did it" knee-jerk slobbering nominations, this article notes the copious number of old explosive relics and modern-day military exercises in direct proximity, and - color us shocked - it turns out multiple nations, including Russia, regularly hold military exercises, with live ammunition, very near the pipelines and the immediate vicinity, even after the article's discussion of tons and tons of UXO from WW2 scattered hither and yon from Russia to the Kattegat strait.
Oopsie. The universe of what could have happened just got a lot wider than those trying to paint this as inevitably the US, in a clown wig and floppy shoes, acting all by itself on a bare white plain of obviousness.
Looks like some folks' knee-jerk "theory" just took another direct hit.
But the low IQ contingent wants you to believe that we did it, after we explicitly warned Germany that intelligence pointed towards some nefarious third-party op, which might be planned for the pipelines, and yet with everyone watching, we went in there and sabotaged the pipelines ourselves, and expect Germans to starve to death and freeze this winter, while their government, together with Danish, British, Norwegian, and Swedish militaries and governments keep the secret of our responsibility from the whole world, in perpetuity, because that regional conspiracy sounds more plausible to them. And for not going along with that delusional codswallop, I'm the unreasonable one.
Which is proof of the adage "Where there's smoke, there's a bong."
RTWT.
{For a second time, for the flood of low-comprehension readers, this is not nor ever was intended to explain everything that happened. It simply points out that there are a lot of balls in play on this pinball machine, multiple navies from interested parties in the local region, and many, many more ways for pipelines to go "Boom" than does pretending that only the US Navy's undersea capabilities are likely to own the blame. If this was too hard for anyone to grasp without being this explicitly told, please spend less time licking the short bus windows, and more time looking out of them. Complex problems seem simple -- for simpletons. Don't be That Guy. The level of mouth-frothing psychosis to defend "The U.S. did it!" position would be embarrassing even to incarcerated delusional psychotics. - A.}
So your latest take on all of this is that some boats conducting military exercises in an area where these types of exercises have been conducted countless times detonated at least 2 separate old bombs that were over 3 miles apart, that have been sitting on the sea bed for years, haven’t been disturbed by any of the other military exercises over the decades since WWII, or other ships driving over them countless times, or by the act of laying these pipelines AND inspecting them over the years they’ve been in service. AND they just happened to detonate at such a fortuitous time for the US government, and at a time when tensions have never been higher in that region, and at a time when detonating removes Russia’s biggest piece of leverage off the board? Have you pondered the insanely low odds of this? Hope I didn’t go too far to get censored. I’ve read you for a lot of years, haven’t commented in a while.
ReplyDelete-Gator
UXO was my first thought; that area is a MESS of it; not only conventional explosives but also also dumped chemical weapons and other military who knows what, and industrial dumping of nasty stuff wouldn't surprise me...
ReplyDeleteAdd in soft and changing ground conditions plus questionable maintenance and the corruption endemic in a big international project like this (especially with Russian involvement!) And anything not only could happen but likely will!
Yeah, it stands to reason Biden had nothing to do with it, because he promised to do it. And that lying pos never does anything he says.
ReplyDeleteJust because there are other possibilities, nothing has been offered for evidence.
Pictures,, we need pictures. Pictures we can believe.
I have no idea who did it, or if was an accident.
ReplyDeleteI do know that someone should tell Secretary of State Blinken to STFD and STFU! The more the US officials and ex-officials like Brennan run their mouths, the more I think they did do it.
@Gator,
ReplyDeleteRead what I wrote, and tell me where I said multiple explosions multiple miles apart all happened fortuitously.
People are great at reading into this all their own prejudices, but not so good at reading the actual typed words.
The Usual Anonymous Suspects are too busy mining diaper nuggets to admit that obviously Russian ships were in the area within the same timeframe as US ships, and that there are also tons of UXO in the area.
Do I think they all just happened to explode fortuitously? Hell, no.
Which, not coincidentally, is why I didn't suggest that's what did it.
Actual possibilities:
Could somebody monkeyfucking about in the area have set one off? Absolutely possible.
Could an internal pipeline failure or failures have triggered additional explosions of UXO? Absolutely yes.
Are there multiple navies in the same area just as likely suspects? Certainly they are.
The point was and is that things in the area are far less black-and-white than the kneejerkers want to account for. But rather than account for any or all of that, they make a beeline to "This must have been the US!!! Because reasons!! Eleventy!!!"
The article underlines that things are anything but clear at this point.
You, and by extension, the article you linked, seem to be implying that it is more likely to be a series of accidental explosions by anyone in the area doing exercises than the US government, the party that clearly has the most to gain by this, doing it themselves. That’s what you are saying. And you are, obviously, entitled the believe whatever you want. I just find it odd that you choose this time to come the .gov’s defense on this, and attack people who think they are the *most likely* culprit as being ‘low IQ’ simply for pointing out that of all parties capable of pulling this off, the US has the most to gain.
DeleteFor what it’s worth, wannabe musician and obvious moron Antony Blinken gave what is likely to be the closest thing to an admission of guilt we will see regarding this the other day, bumbling through an explanation of why the pipeline blowing up is good for us.
I don’t claim to KNOW who did this. I’m just saying who I think did it, based on the classic ‘cui bono’ question. You, on the other hand, seem to only want to attack people who are ostensibly on your side for thinking .gov did it, which is a very odd way of saying ‘we don’t know at this point’, carrying water for the Biden regime while insulting people who disagree with you as being unintelligent. Not a good look.
Gator
I think that focussing on who had suitable assets in the area recently that would facilitate the laying of demo charges on the pipelines ignores the big picture.
ReplyDeleteThese pipeline are physically large, hugely expensive and very vulnerable pieces of infrastructure that would provide significant geopolitical leverage.
Given all that, I reckon that every country that has skin in the game would have been highly motivated to wire them with demo charges at the very first opportunity. Ukraine, Poland, the Baltic states, the Swedes, the UK, the USA etc, and it could have been done months or years ago, in anticipation of the need.. One might well struggle to find a section of pipeline that isn't mined by somebody...all very anonymously, of course. 😊
Taking that as a starting point, the question becomes not "How was it done?" but "Who benefits?"
Given that the Germans were starting to go cold on their support of the war because they needed gas to support their industry and society over the coming winter, Ukraine would have had a substantial motive to knock them out. For example.
I'm not the only one looking at the Ukes...
ReplyDeletehttps://dailysceptic.org/2022/10/03/u-s-warned-germany-about-possible-ukrainian-attack-on-pipelines/
I have no basis for arguing a different scenario, but I want to point out that the people running our government today are not "we". They are a cabal of unelected, Deep State operatives, and if the American people knew the extent of their crimes, they would be executed. I think the American people still agree with G. Washington's principle, that we should not get entangled in foreign intrigues.
ReplyDeleteAnother perspective. Will let you experts determine the viability.
ReplyDeletehttps://www.monkeywerxus.com/blog/the-nord-stream-2-pipeline-sabotage
Polly
I usually go with -- who has means and motive. The US sadly would be on the list. The US publicly opposed the Nordstream 2 line. But the US is not the only one. What I also find interesting is no mention or consideration of a non government actor doing the sabotage.
ReplyDeleteMonkey Werx already spelled out how the attack went down
ReplyDeletePerhaps it seemed to you that's what was implied - if you haven't read one other single thing on this blog in the last week, which lays out the all the US has to gain by doing this is joining Russia in the catalog of worldwide pariah states, the dissolution of NATO, and likely driving all of Europe into Putin's camp in haste. That's before we talk about crimes against humanity for any number of people this winter who might freeze to death, or starve next spring, and the concentrated hate and ire of every single person in Europe, if not the world, for doing all that.
ReplyDeleteThose are all the "benefits" the US would get from destroying pipelines.
Any government in complicity with us before, during, or after the fact gets their share of all that too. Who wouldn't pick that idea, right?
Since you also evidently haven't bothered to read one single word I've written on the topic prior to this post, you can be forgiven for being wholly unaware that the one thing I'm not defending is Emperor Poopypants Stumblefuck's ongoing illegitimate banana republic cabal.
So if you're going to spin things out of your ass based on one post, I guess I shouldn't be surprised at your conclusions.
But the idea that every swinging Richard in the government, intelligence, military, and defense departments, from pedo Joe to the guys laying the charges, is in on the con, mouth-breathing droolers, oblivious to the downsides apparent to most people in about a Ne York Minute, and yet still fully willing to go along with such an asinine idea is quite simply flatly impossible, just statistically, as it would require a conspiracy of silence from several millions of people who would go along with this genius move, which is about as likely as pigs not only flying, but inventing a steam-catapult launching system for takeoffs as well, all on their own.
And that's what the "U.S. did it" theory not only wants, but necessarily requires, in order to work just to pull it off. One sane, rational actor anywhere along the links breaks that chain. But we're to believe that no one in the magical "they" of government could see that gaping flaw, while every Sherlock Holmes with a keyboard has cracked that case.
If I hadn't seen it online with my own eyes, I wouldn't have thought there was a bong big enough to make that happen that big anywhere in the universe. yet here we are, and people are still seriously suggesting it.
You're saying the U.S. did this, by ignoring all possible downsides of the "cui bono?" question as if they don't exist, and jumping your Credo-cycle over 300 busses of reasons why the US doesn't benefit. Well...okay.
Skipping all the reasons one's pet theory is recockulous as if they didn't exist, pretending that exercising bog-standard common sense is "carrying water" for the cabal headed by one referred herein consistently as Emperor Stumblefuck Poopypants, and still beating your head against the wall in total refusal to acknowledge those negative indicators isn't a good look either.
And notably, all the governments most affected seem pretty content to conclude that the Russians did this too.
So, from your perspective, they're obviously all in on the con too, and/or similarly too stupid to see what any 80-IQ foole on the internet can see.
That position begins to cross the line from stupidity to psychosis at some point. Probably with JATO assist bottles strapped on.
But if it makes you feel better, I posted your take over the twenty anonymous assholes (or more likely two anonymous assholes ten times apiece) who couldn't articulate anything nearly as well, let alone have the balls to sign their own posts.
Sincere kudos for at least owning your own position.
Perhaps the one overriding issue was not global popularity but the ery existence of the empire. There is no one left to loot and pillage beside Europe and the Pacific allies. So why Europe first? Empire can't let the German industrial power become wedded to panAsia. As a big plus, Europe has so much more to strip mine than the pacific allies.
DeleteRemember we started this war to break up Russia so we could plunder it's resource wealth and turn that into world control by beating the Chinese. When that failed (it was supposed to be a quick fight with mostly economic sanctions doing the heavy lifting) the empire had to start eating it's own or perish. When it I'd your turn or mine, the empire will turn and destroy us too, without thout or regard.
@Polly and Anon 7:13A,
ReplyDeleteMonkeywerx commits the same error of ignoring the drawbacks outlined above, then cherry-picks only the data points that support their imaginary "solution", while excluding all contrary data.
The model for this is Globull Warming, and it's funnier when Great Thunberg does it.
Exemplar:
Signs go up in Central Park saying "No elephants allowed in trees".
No elephants are observed in trees in Central Park afterwards.
The lack of elephants in Central Park, or the North American continent, and their innate inability to climb trees, let alone read signs, is wholly ignored.
Conclusion drawn: The signs are effective.
That's the monkeywerx entire fantasy-spin in a nutshell.
Fair enough about UXO in that region. The folks in Belgium are still pulling out tons of UXO from WWI every year. But it doesn't seem likely that UXO took out two separate pipelines simultaneously.
ReplyDelete@Marty,
ReplyDeleteNor did we suggest otherwise.
What everyone in TL;DR herd glossed over was the multiple military exercises by all parties in the region regularly, which undoes the whole "only the US" narrative in about 0.2 seconds, and that amount of UXO inconveniently everywhere thereabouts complicates explanations exponentially.
There was a survey done clearing a 25m corridor for each of the four pipelines. It's standard for an undersea pipeline.
ReplyDeletehttps://www.nord-stream.com/press-info/press-releases/nord-stream-preparing-for-munitions-clearance-366/
We've gone from Russia did it to it was a "normal" accident to it was an old bomb. How many steps do we have to eliminate before you admit that we did it?
@Phelps,
ReplyDeleteThank heavens objects on the sea floor never shift because of currents, underwater landslides, getting dragged by nets, or anything else, right?
FTR, we've gone from Russia did it to Russia did it to Russia did it, with acknowledgement that there are additional plausible possibilities with enough actual evidentiary points that they bear further exploration and acknowledgment, so we did so.
The odds that the U.S. did it remain fixed at about 1000:1 against, for all the reasons laboriously laid out, most of them wholly unread by the kneejerk "the U.S. did it" crowd, because they blow over that house of cards, but one can't argue using reason and logic, against people who never used reason and logic to leap to their initial conclusions.
It's like ghostbusting with a butterfly net instead of a proton pack and trap: they just float right past.
"The odds that the U.S. did it remain fixed at about 1000:1 against"
ReplyDeleteIf you're making book, I'll take that bet, $10 for $10k return sounds good to me.
If you aren't who is offering those odds, so I can get in on the action?
Any debris on the Baltic floor has been there for at least 40 years. It's not a high current area, or they would have done a corridor wider than 25m. Your theory is that there's so much movement that at two remote locations there were unexpended munition explosions less than 24 hours apart?
ReplyDeleteAs for reason and logic, the entirety of your argument against the US doing it is "we aren't that stupid." Hurkay. The entirety of your argument for Russia doing it is "they are the stupidest regime on the planet." Hurkay.
You keep trying to put a non-existent "theory" in my mouth that was never uttered, implied, nor offered. Straw Man Fallacy. 20 yard penalty and loss of down.
ReplyDeletePut away the straw and old clothes.
The entirety of my argument against the United States is that hundreds to thousands of people, at every link in the requisite chain of action, aren't that stupid.
When I've stated that, explicitly and verbatim, multiple times, and you still try to restate it falsely, we've moved from obtuseness on your part to deliberate and considered jackassery. Knock it off, if you can help yourself.
The entirety of my argument for Russia doing it is that Putin is evil, he rules over a command dictatorship, and his people have none of the brakes or hindrances on his behavior under which even Emperor StumbleFuck Poopypants and/or his Good Idea Fairy minions labors.
In political science circles, that hindrance here is a feature, and its lack in Putin's Russia is a bug.
The fact that you get this, and could grasp the concept, but deliberately elect to misstate it for your own purposes is a poor tactic of argumentation, and underlines why you aren't making any progress towards proving any contrary point.
@JimR,
ReplyDeleteSuggest you try Vegas or Atlantic City. Let us know how it works out for ya.
The thought seems to be we couldn’t get away with it (USA) or we are to moral. Yet the Gov. wants everyone in the world quadruple vaxxed (or just vaxxed to death) whatever comes first. I have to go with the woke mob thought they could get away with blowing up the pipelines and the media would cover for them. Nothing to see here. Epstein didn’t kill himself. Mostly peaceful riots.
ReplyDeleteWho are these hundreds or thousands of people that have to be in on it? Maybe 10 people at the White House. Half a dozen people at the Pentagram to come up with the attack profile. Five people on the crew of the P8, four of which are Just Following Orders. A dozen on a ground crew who just know that the brass wants a plane full of gas and torpedoes, and a refueling crew who just knows that there is a thirsty bird waiting at this time. For everyone else on the long tail, it's just a guy fueling a plane, a guy making his normal weather report, a guy packing extended mission meals, etc. They don't need to know what they are for, and won't be told.
ReplyDeleteHow do you get thousands out of that? This wasn't a massive combined armed exercise. This was one plane that Needed to Know. Everyone else was just following normal everyday orders.
@Anon,
ReplyDeleteMorality doesn't enter into it. Lack of a conga line of fools from here to Timbuktu who aren't bat-shit stupid and insane on an op that could potentially destroy NATO and start a global thermonuclear war is a far higher bar to get over.
@Phelps,
You can't even get in the door at the White House with only 10 people knowing about it.
The Pentagon is the World's Biggest Leak Factory, after Congress. And planning on this would be more like 50-100 people.
And BTW, The Eight would have had to be briefed as well. (Look it up if you're unclear on this.) Which puts 16 congressional staffers, minimum, on the story as well. Half of them from the party that hates Poopypants.
Everybody on the plane isn't "just following orders". Weapons don't quietly launch themselves. So now that entire chain of command is in on it. Base commander, his higher, squadron commander, his entire chain of command up to CNO. So like four admirals, and their top-tier staff and assistants. Anybody who's ever flown a mission knows that. And there are no secrets like that in squadrons or on bases.
And in the dotMil, they sign for every round of ammunition. But you think one plane took out two pipelines in four places and less than 20 people know about it. As if.
And nobody, including three techs and two officers at the weapons armory, and their entire chain of command, is going to mention a weapons dump in the Baltic Sea the day two pipelines go tits up, and they'll all just look the other way. And nobody will tell wives or girlfriends or boyfriends. Sh'yeah, as if.
Like it hasn't been worldwide news for a week. Like nobody ever figures stuff out.
This kind of op would have been floated past thousands of people, and there'd already be a dozen leakers flogging it to death to the media if it had happened. We'd pretty much have the whole thing by now, and a couple of monkeys on the internet would not be the ones cracking the case.
The direct chain of command on this runs to well over a thousand people, minimum, from Sec Def and NSAdv, and their combined staffs, down to the WSO who'd punch the red button. And probably double that for those in the know, just for a practice op. And you think they could run Manhattan Project levels of security on that, off the cuff, on a real-world weapons dump. It is to laugh.
You're spinning recockulous bullshit, because you clearly don't know what you don't know.
This is Jussie Smolett levels of far-fetched fantasy, already.
You really should just stop.
The central premise of the “America Worst” crowd is that the USA is run by soooper seeeekrit cliques of antisocial reptiles who will never leak secrets, except when they obviously blow up a pipeline and tell us otherwise just to do a victory lap over our lying eyes.
ReplyDeleteI doubt the Eight heard anything about it. We're long past laws in this country. Yeah, the rounds are signed for. Everyone who doesn't Just Follow Orders was bounced out during Covid. They've been sorting everyone for workeness for 10 years, and they know exactly who and who can't be sent on this kind of mission. Thousands of people would have touched this mission, but all but a very few would have nothing to indicate that it was anything other than a routine training mission.
ReplyDeleteHow do you know that there haven't been dozens of people flogging it to the media? We've certainly seen them kill stories before, and that's for things that you can't get sent to Leavenworth for if .mil finds out you leaked it.
It's two pipelines in three places. NS1 A&B, and NS2 A. NS2 B is still intact, and the Russians have announced that they can start feeding gas into it as soon as the sanctions are lifted.
Gainsay away.
ReplyDelete