From Comments
The upcoming generation of morons who embrace the high-tech battery-powered whiz-kid horseshit by itself are going to pay a heavy toll when it shits the bed in combat, either from primary or logistical failure, and they're left with aught but high-priced clubs.
In riflery, just as in auto racing, the true professionals learn the old ways, because the lessons have been paid for in actual blood.
Spot on and not just for iron sights. The youngsters around here get trained on magnetic compasses, ad-hoc sun dials, how to estimate the time and cardinal directions by sun and stars. Simple stuff one may never ever need. However, if it is needed it may just be a question of life and death.
ReplyDeleteA lot of rifle's don't even come with any irons at all. The manufacturer assumes that some type of red dot / scope will be mounted right then and there. Most new shooters skipped the step of learning by shooting pellet / BB guns - they went directly to centerfire. No idea of bullet trajectory and the effects of wind. Because they only shoot at the range at set distances where the arm is zeroed.
ReplyDeleteAnd how to 'Make Meat' (Animal carcass processing). A helluva lot of people have no idea where to begin if they had to make their own food right from the hide. I weep for them.
This isn't new alas. Back when I was a pup in the ahem 80's , I was the only student in my JROTC class at a big high school mind that could read maps . The rest learned which is the point of JROTC of course but still , it's a basic life skill.
ReplyDeleteMillennials too are woefully unprepared, A Thomas guide is as mysterious as the necronomicon to them and in a group of like 7 people, most all of whom were shooters or martial arts guys at least, only I had the pocket knife. Alright the at the time new girl, some kind of city hillbilly stock forgot hers but I'll give a lady a pass.
Millennials aren’t the ones who are neglecting to teach map reading to themselves. If milennial JROTC students aren’t learning to read maps, then it’s because the instructors aren’t teaching it.
DeleteIn other news, I sit here as a millennial who was reading maps with LRS units in Korea and Afghanistan. So there ya go. Maybe you’re spending time around the wrong group of millennials.
The latest Aimpoint sights have battery lives measured in years. I personally have a Micro T-1 on my primary social carbine that has been on continuously for more than 4 years without a battery change (It is getting replaced this Christmas.)
ReplyDeleteYes, I get it, electronics fail, but even legendary stick in the mud Clint Smith has an Aimpoint on his carbine now.
I also have BUIS mounted, and they are zeroed to the red dot. I fully understand that Mr Murphy exists, and the weight is negligible.
I never went for all the tacticool/nerd shit on my rifles and pistols. I have old school optical scopes and the iron sights on my rifles and just iron sights on my pistolas. My way of thinking I really didn't want to hump anymore crap in my ruck then I had too. I fondly remember my lean green fighting machine days and I will be damned if I am gonna suffer one more ounce then I have to. Electronic crap breaks, iron not so much.
ReplyDeleteAll of my glass is co-witnessed with BUIS. S-happens always at the wrong time.
ReplyDeleteReading maps, land navigation, and making maps (trained geologist in my previous life) is second nature to me. It's something I still love to do. I was pissed when USGS stopped making hard copy topos. Yeah, I'm old school with a brunton compass.
I did 4 years on AD Army and four in Reserves. Deployed to ‘Stan and had ball getting shot at by retarded brown people. Only once or twice in the entire time in the Army did I get to “qual” using optics, and NEVER did I get to use the ACOG for that. The optic I used was the Aimpoint, the M68, Comp M4, CCO, whatever the hell you want to call it. Every other time I qualified with irons and so did the rest of the soldiers.
ReplyDeleteMy last year in the reserves, my last time qualifying actually... Everyone in my unit was issued our weapons. They knew I was getting out so out of about a hundred soldiers, I was one of only five who was given a M16. The rest had M4. About half had the CCO and the rest had ACOGs. Even the few M16 holders.
Besides me.
For some reason they decided (not for lack of gear) that I was going to have a M16A2 with irons only. Literally ALL of the others had optics of some kind.
I still qualified with 37/40 and 10/10 with pro-mask on, but to this day I still wonder why I got no optic.
Oh well. I preferred to qualify with irons because qualifying is all about shooting fundamentals. Qualify with irons so you know you’re shooting well, and then get your optic zeroed in after that, and then qualify with the optic so you know you’re using it properly.
> shooters or martial arts guys at least, only I had the pocket knife.
ReplyDeleteGot busted for a 2-1/2" Shrade folder some years ago. Local laws were strict on knives. Later we got Concealed Carry (required a badge before) and could stagger around with as many guns as we could conceal under a trench coat, but that little Shrade was still go-to-jail eevul. No "knife permit" existed.
Eventually the legislature dismissed all existing knife laws with "incorporation", so you can carry your halberd or box cutter or Klingon bat'leth around if you want.
Some of us still haven't got back into the habit of carrying a blade, particularly when we're carrying so much other stuff nowadays.
I was at a friend's house and he was trying to get a new network card out of a blister back. He asked me if I had a knife. I told him I didn't have a knife, but he was welcome to use my pistol if he wanted. He replied he was carrying his own pistol if it came down to that...
May I suggest that running a bolt gun is another "stick shift" skill? A competent rifleman with a well-zeroed bolt action center fire rifle would be formidable opponent, especially with a mag cap => 10. When you have to aim you tend to shoot better.
ReplyDelete_revjen45
There is a reason for the optics. In my local high power across the course shooting group, when they finally permitted optics, the overall scores went up significantly.
ReplyDeleteNone of these shooters are new or inexperienced shooters. Seasoned and grizzled is a more apt description. They all shot better using an optic.
In my case, I shot better because I could see the target with an optic, not so with Irons.
I hate to tell the commenter in the OP, but auto racing doesn't even use transmissions with shift levers in the common sense. Certainly Formula 1 cars do not.
ReplyDeleteIf batteries scare folks, there's always Trijicon ACOGs, I have several. Though the tritium capsule does decay, it takes decades. I have a Trijicon red dot sight, it uses a wafer battery that lasts for years, and is easily replaced.
I learned iron sights when many out here were still shitting yellow, in the late 50s. I'm not married to them at all.
Back when we used a ramrod these young pups started talking about some new-fangled breech loading...
ReplyDeleteOkay, I get it. A robust sighting device is a requirement.
Nonetheless.
Multiple redundancies (and TEOTWAWKI notwithstanding), technical advantages, including a single ocular point of reference for normal engagement ranges, are an enhancement.
I am VN vintaged; I comprehend the "break glass in case of emergency" mentality. Nonetheless, if one were chasing or facing Chuck, an AN/PVS-1 would be welcomed unless and until it did not work. And then one would utilize the "multiple redundancies".
A knife is a handy thing to have.
ReplyDeleteIt never needs batteries, just some TLC.
Co-witness any glass with flip up rear sight or get 45 degree angle BUIS
ReplyDeleteSome of you are entirely missing the point, and clearly never read the comment that spawned it.
ReplyDeleteNew military shooters (who in 99% of cases have never fired any weapon beforehand)are getting scant time with iron sights and the fundamentals of basic rifle marksmanship.
(And that's in the by-God Marine Corps; does the Army, outside of DM/snipers, even know what iron sights are? Just curious.)
I have optics on all my weapons, because I have older eyes. And because I don't have 10X or better vision for shot attempts between 600-1000Y. In addition to the irons.
But I still know HTF to sight in a rifle with iron sights, and even with presbyopia, I can still scratch out a score >230/250 on the (currently first part of a) standard USMC rifle qual course, because I effing learned that way from scratch, so even if the gee whiz neat-o toys get broken, or the batteries die, or can't be had in whatever zombpocalypse comes down the pike, I'm still lethal from 0-500 yards with the Mark I eyeball. That's a perishable skill, and more so if you never learned it in the first place, let alone have no capability because you lack the hardware and the software to even try it, which lack is nothing but short-sighted jackassical foolishness.
Someone who can only shoot using the gee whiz toys, not anywhere close.
So on a bad day, or any prolonged logistically-challenged problem, they're fucked, with a rifle less accurate than an out-of-the-box AK farther than 20 yards, but I'm not.
Does that make a Leupold scope, ACOG, EOTech or twenty other things bad?
Fuck no. I own multiples of all of them, and love them. But I'm not dependent on them alone for basic battle carbines, which problem is the exact one I described above.
Now, with that emphasis added, feel free to retract and revise your remarks, and try to address the actual topic in a germane fashion.
Reading comprehension: still an actual thing.
Anybody who doubts the effectiveness of modern optics has never actually used them, or is just to hard-headed to accept the "new" reality. The solid base of iron site shooting must be developed and maintained. This is the core of all marksmanship and is irreplaceable. All that said, optics make a skilled marksman faster, and makes it easier to hit the target. This can't be disputed, at least not intellectually.
ReplyDeleteI've heard the tired old rant of "tacticool-nerdy crap" for too many years now. I served from 1985 to 2012, and fired uncountable numbers of rounds through who knows how many types of guns. In the mid 90's we got the first aimpoints. Sure enough, it didn't take long to figure out that we were faster and just as accurate at the ranges we were engaging at with these new-fangled battery driven wonders. We were constantly told by the oldsters to keep our BUIS ready to play, because those batteries were gonna fail at the worst time, just you wait and see. Well, I'm still waiting...
I have several examples of red dots and other optics on my home use guns, and still run them pretty hard, even in my civilian/post service days, and still have no issues with any of them. Those BUIS still work and seem to hold a zero just fine, and I suppose they will continue to wait for that fateful day the batteries die mid- battle. I'm personally betting I will not survive the number of fights required to reach that magical conjunction where the red dot blinks out and the irons save the day.
Optics provide precision in aiming.
ReplyDeleteThey do not provide, by themselves, any increase in practical accuracy. They must be properly installed, operated and understood, together with the physics that underlies them.
Several months ago, I had occasion to take my M1 Garand to the range and test the 275 (point blank) zero at 300 yards.
From slung prone, I was hitting the 300 yard 6" steel with GI iron sights 8 out of 8 shots. Several other shooters were dumbfounded;
One asked me how I could hit "so far away on such a windy day". I explained how peep sights work, and how I had zeroed my rifle. He and a couple of other guys listened, then walked away shaking their heads, still perplexed.
I always begin marksmanship instruction with Iron sights, preferably peep sights, demonstrating to the untutored what a good shot using iron sights can do, to forestall the inevitable claims that "the rifle is broken." My wife took a beginning carbine class and ran the whole thing with irons, outshooting 90 percent of the other students, most equipped with electronic dot sights of various kinds.
The ability to run irons is an essential skill. If you are dependent on optics, or worse, on batteries, you are dependent on industrial infrastructure.
I don't think any of my fellow compatriots in the comment section can imagine a scenario in which our phenomenal logistical system goes belly up. Hard to imagine since we haven't had a fight with another heavy weight contender since the 40s. On my way out of service manual gunnery was neglected in artillery. Few people are great at it and question it the digital age.
ReplyDelete1) Finally an article that doesn't brand me a Luddite for having irons on my social work implements. Note that lens R&R for cataracts made a BIG difference.
ReplyDelete2) Actually I do have optics on some of my social work tools, but I know how to operate the piece without depending on them.
3) Yeah, I'm aware of all the supporting data in favor of optics. However, life experience gained from observing myself and others has taught me that if it has wheels*, tits**, or batteries it will probably give you trouble at some point. The odds of an optic going T.U. are low indeed, but it ain't just the odds. The stakes count for a lot too.
* Old Harleys have never been paragons of reliability. An Indian will get you home.
** Note: 50th Anniversary this Dec. - Based on watching others.
Social work tools. After thinking about it a few minutes, I sez to myself, that is actually what they are, in a manner of thinking. And if these tools were used to perform social work on the kinds of people who really needed that kind of therapy the most, why then that would be some mighty fine social work indeed.
DeleteSome of you lack reading comprehension skills, Aesop never said optics are bad, he just said they're accessories. The default position on any rifle is the iron sights, then you bolt on a sight improvement/ target acquisition device.
ReplyDeleteLike a few others, I started with a single shot .22 at age 11, then progressed to an '03 and M-1 rifle in ROTC and USNR, an M-14 / M-16A1 in the USMC and over the yrs keep learning about newer optics, some of which I own and some I don't. But I spent years shooting competition with all 3 open sight military rifles also (M-1, M-14, M-16A1).
What some of you fail to understand is Murphy's Law, your batteries and scope can and will fail you under extreme combat conditions when weather, lack of supply and maintenance finally overwhelm you and cannot keep up. Fogged scope and dead batteries first come to mind. Dropping your scope on a rock couldn't possibly happen, let alone seals failing or breaking a lens. Most of what you're using wouldn't have lasted 1 month in Vietnam during the wet season, so don't think you're too exceptional to have equipment failures.
Instead of arguing to defend your battery powered toys, why don't you listen and learn from those that know how to teach the old default skills.
One word...Holosun
ReplyDeleteThe best of both worlds
But with a quick release base
which enables one to revert back
to iron sights, if, the Holosun
goes down.
I wash the back of the front sight
blade with a "white out" type product
which allows one some definition and/or
contrast.
B.R.A.S.S.
ReplyDeleteThose that know, know.
Iron peep sights don't have glass coatings that jump out as a target to automated targeting systems. Interference range finders don't send a laser to a similar automated targeting system that will return fire to your location faster than you can click the safety from your rifle after noting the range +/- 1M. Anti-reflective devices seem optional to most.
ReplyDeleteThe counter to the vintage weapons are more exotic and unknown than the vintage weapons. I know youse guys are fully thermal vision countermeasured, especially against the actively cooled 1600-pixel-wide 12-bit-per-color dynamic-range models (cubic money) riding on Uncle's newer armored vehicles. Quantity has a quality of it's own, and it's not so expensive to put frs radio, code book, tasco bino, compass/map, thermos+snacks in the hands of every team of three 15 year olds who want to "do something". EMP, yes, and fire. Driver still needs to stretch, and machine needs fuel.
Holy Crap what an ego fest. Ya line something up in the back with something up in the front and press the trigger. The sights you have in your PIC are peeps sites. I'll take them over most electronic sites.
ReplyDeleteKeep it simple. Everyone should know how to shoot iron. That is the way I learned and taught my kids and am teaching my grands. Scopes and dots are fine, but everyone should practice the basics "just in case".
ReplyDelete@Unkownsailor, Clint Smith may be using some other stuff but that is completely beside the point; which is
ReplyDeleteHe still insists on proficiency with irons. First. Always.
For his 70th birthday he had an M1 Carbine shoot. As issued. Says something to me about preferences.
I'm completely confident Clint would endorse Aesop's points
Boat Guy
Iron or optical?
ReplyDelete...Bofe, coach....
Open bolt in MOPP gear with spotter.
ReplyDeleteNothing new to ad here. Just an old Big Green guy taught on iron sights back in the 70's. I have optics but sure wouldn't feel comfortable without being able to qualify as an expert rifleman with only iron sights first before I moved on to advanced optics. I love the red dots and scopes and they do bring you on target much quicker. I guess it boils down to basics first and never rely on something that very unlikely but is still possible to fail when you need it the most.
ReplyDelete