Kenny, over at Knuckledraggin' My Life Away, grabs all kinds of articles, some funny, some interesting, and some raise-your-blood-pressure mad. Some all of the above in one go.
As an actual native Californian now happily ensconced in Tennessee, he chooses a number of articles from here in Califrutopia to point out the liberal stupidity rampant hereabouts (which is shooting fish in a barrel, but hey, those fish aren't going to shoot themselves, are they?).
I'm happy to cheer and jeer, hoot, holler, and howl along with the rest, but having actual skin in the game, my take can be and is a bit different from people whose sole experience of CA is from their TV sets, or a one-time trip to Disneyland.
So came this article on the recent decision to mandate solar panels on new home construction, in a state struggling to meet the power demands of its native relatives, the transplanted toothless banjo-playing liberal kinfolks of yours from the Other 49, and way too damn many illegal aliens hopping the border fence for the last 40 years:
(SACRAMENTO) CalifAnd frankly, the shock and screaming got a little too silly for me.orniarutopia became the first state in the country Wednesday to require new homes to have solar panels on their roofs.
The mandate, which goes into effect in 2020, won unanimous approval of the California Energy Commission, one of whom predicted the “green” lifestyle regulation will go national.
"I’m thinking you guys have this bassackwards.
They should have been doing this with new homes and businesses here decades ago.
Now, with current panel prices, it’s financially recockulous not to.
AZ, NM, and TX should be doing the same thing for new construction.
(But if y’all would rather burn up oil to replace what you could get from the sun, and send petro-dollars to Islamic states to fund terrorists to come over here and go all ‘splodey, go on ahead.
Price of oil drops, and you defund raghead jihadis, and Russians, and Venezuelan socialists, and get more cheap gasoline for your SUVs, bass boats, and ATVs. You do the math.)
It’s also evidently slipped everyone’s mind that having running water and functional shitters installed is “mandatory” too. Or maybe some of you folks catch rainwater in whisky barrels to drink, and shit off the front porch, I dunno.
Nobody’s telling them to have a full self-contained solar system.
(But frankly, living in a state that’s got sunshine about 300 days/year most places, you’re an ignorant asshole if you didn’t do that already.)
But installed panels will cut the strain on the grid, self-power heat and A/C at the times of the day and year it’s most needed, and cut back on pollution from local power plants.
(They also short-stop solar gain to the attic in the summer in the first place. Double win.)
It’ll also, it should be noted, cut your own daily power bill. And possibly allow you to sell the excess back to the utility.
I wouldn’t build so much as a garden shed here without putting a solar panel on the south facing side, and anyone with 40-50 2’x4’ panels and a battery bank back-up could be 100% off-grid, 24/7/365 even in downtown. After being off-grid involuntarily for 11 days straight after the Northridge earthquake, I’ll let anyone ponder why that set-up might not be a bad idea in a state with earthquakes large and small as a regular feature of living here.
The cost of batteries would probably run little more than the power costs outright, with the added bonus of no rate increase, no dependence on far-away utility princes, no permanent bills, no intrusive busybody “smart” meters, and no electric company jackass nosing around the non-existent meter 12X/yr., and phoning in anything “suspicious” to the local constabulary or building permit officers.
It’s not jacking up the cost of a house. It’s just transferring the amortized cost into the front end.
You’re going to pay for the power either way.
If the higher up-front prices weeds out more riff-raff moving here from Bumfuck,Egypt, that’s just icing on the cake."Whereupon I was chastised thusly:
Bullshit.Hi, I'm Aesop. Please, by all means, try to baffle me with statistics. Because I don't think or use math for a living, let alone a blog-hobby, so that'll totally work for you.
Are you aware less than 1/2 0f 1% of electricity in the USA is generated using Oil?
Coal, Nat Gas & Hydro & Nuclear are all domestic., none are sourced by Towelheads outside North America.
So you’re telling me that dumping the petroleum that makes 21,000,000,000 kWh of energy produced by using oil back onto the spot market isn’t going to affect the price of gasoline?
Pull the other leg, it’s got bells on it.
1/2 of 1% of 4 TRILLION kWh of energy is one helluva lot of tanks of gas. It’s 36,000,000 barrels of oil, or 18 entire supertankers’ worth.
(You can go to the same EIA website and figure that out in about 90 seconds of math.)
This where the old “figures don’t lie, but liars figure” argument comes from.
And are you aware that there’s damned little hydro, and only one nuclear power plant in CA, when last I looked?
Kinda narrows it down some, and the nearest coal fields are a couple thousand miles away, and natural gas only gets you so far. So I should be sad there’s less coal gas in the sky here, and less diesel from trains pulling it across an entire continent?
Are you aware PV already generates three times the power oil does nationwide, right now?
Yak all you want about the numbers; home solar removes the necessity of the grid in the first place, doubly so with actual in-home battery storage, and it works when the grid doesn’t.
Beat that in a state with 300 days/yr of sunshine.
Then get back to me.
If Maine was doing this, or Michigan or Alaska, I could see the point of bitching.
For FL, Hawaii, and the southern border states, it’s a slam-dunk.
Alternatively, we could just move all the toothless banjo-playing kinfolks here from Everywhere Else back where they came from, and build the Great Wall of Trump, followed by shipping the illegals back home too, and we won’t need to worry about solar panels hereabouts.
But that’d probably require us to stop listening to nominally Republican senators and congressmen from Florida, Arizona, South Carolina, among other places, yapping about how amnesty for douchebag illegals was a great idea.
But their cousins would be back home in their families’ laps, so I can see where that plan would suck for everyone thereabouts.
I may seem like another "Get off my lawn" guy, but I appreciate it when people throw some bullshit back, to force me to dig out the details in an argument. No, really.
Because now I know I was right, and by exactly how much, after untwisting the barrels of oil and kilowatt hours and number of supertankers of oil we're talking about.
And as I noted in later comments, yes, I'd much prefer that they'd have incentivized this than mandated it, but please, bear with me, and try to think about exactly which knee-jerkingly Leftardian jackholes in the Califrutopia legislature we're talking about.
They've had a good idea (which for them, is probably as rare an event as can be found in nature), which also explains why they're thus going about it exactly the wrong way.
But true scorn and ridicule ought to be saved for their blisteringly stupid jackassical masterpiece turds, of which they mint far too many, day after day, and year after year.
But they can't print money, so the whole dipshit disasterpiece is headed towards an inevitable fiscal cliff, and The Coming Reckoning, inevitable as it will be terrible, is going to fix a lot of that, albeit in the same way Vesuvius cleaned up Pompeii.
We've got solar here. Were still grid tied for now but it's one hell of an array, and dropped our power bill from 550.00 a month (average year round, NOT a typo) to 30.00 a month (average year round). In peak hot months I use a lot of AC because menopause. Spring and fall our power bill is negative. NEGATIVE. Winter it's about 20.00 a month to keep certain rooms heated so my family members don't freeze (we're in the Sierra Foothills - snow, cold, etc.). You're not mentioning the INSANE, ASTRONOMICAL prices PG&E charge in CA - it's not like my family sucks a ton of power. All of our lights are LED, we're careful about energy vampires - PG&E just charges a TON. I'm planning on more panels and a battery bank for full off-grid in the next two years.
ReplyDeleteMandating solar with construction in this state seems bad to people not in this state, but to me it's the same as mandating earthquake building codes, etc. Just like in FL or other places they build for their climate and have codes for that. Do I like "mandates" coming out of Sacramento? I can say clearly NO. HELL NO. In fact I'd love your opinion of https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billNavClient.xhtml?bill_id=201720180AB3087.
But in this case, they came out with that once in a decade decent idea that's going to save every homeowner a TON of money in the long run (we've already hit full ROI and it's only been 5 years - we paid out of pocket for our panels and electricians) and people complain about THAT? Bizarre. Yeah, hey, instead we should build more nuclear power plants on our faultlines so all of these out of staters that move here get irradiated next time a fault decides to act up! LOL! "Sorry, your cousin Billy Bob died due to radiation poisoning..." FFS...
Hey, stop talking down the Arizona power plant jobs that NIMBY California has created, Aesop!
ReplyDeleteSeriously, the devil is in the details here. Grid-tied solar complicates the power company's job. Not only do they have to respond to the fluctuations in demand, now they don't control all of the production either, and keeping things running at 60Hz 120V gets tricky. Also since much of California's power is produced a fair distance away (waving from AZ here), the response time to those fluctuations is relatively high. As the solar panel power production rises, the complexity increases. For now, not a problem. After 10% total grid power is reached, feedback loops get hard to deal with. Hoping for new technology to ease this problem, we'll see.
Next, do you trust the construction companies to put a quality solar installation on those new houses, or will it be cheap crap thrown together to satisfy the law, hooked up by a Mexican without a clue? Fire hazard, incoming! I expect many of these solar panel controllers to fry, hopefully they will not take the house with them. The panels on my mom's house are just sitting there, they scammed her good and it never did actually save her anything.
As far as batteries go, you'd be surprised how expensive they are. Done right, with a good charge controller, they're more expensive than the solar panels. If you're going to use lead-acid, get 4x more capacity than needed at a minimum. Every time a lead-acid battery gets drained just 20% down from full, it shortens the battery life. What you save up front will be paid many times over in replacement costs. Nickel-iron batteries last a lifetime and are incredibly robust. The price tag is also incredibly robust.
You can be hopeful that Governor Moonbeam and his fellows make this a positive for the state. I'll bet otherwise based on their past performance.
Solar use is great.
ReplyDeleteWe use it, as well as wind power domestically.
The point in all the bitching is the government MANDATING it. That's ridiculous and un-American.
We are free aren't we? Shouldn't we be able to CHOOSE what power we want to use?
Maybe you've been in Cali too long, Aesop, and have fallen victim to the "if it makes sense we should make everyone do it" thesis. There's a reason people from Cali are distrusted here. They tend to bring their attitudes with them.
We should all be FREE to choose what we want.
Fuck government mandates.
Ned2
@Ned
ReplyDeleteHow does "free to do what you want to do" work for you when people shit in their yard (or upstream from your house, or next to your well), run a junkyard in the driveway, breed mosquitoes in a fetid pond next door, slaughter sheep and goats at the property line, and burn cow chips to cook over?
Or do you, perhaps, have codes for things like that?
And please, call me when wherever "here" is for you has 10% of the entire population of the country jammed into it, along with 5% of the country next door, and let me know how you're doing with things at that point on the "anything goes" plan.
Like I said, this should ideally be incentivized, not mandated, but anarchy is not de facto better than rules. And some people are too stupid to do the right thing, because they're idiots. I know this because I drive here with them everyday.
Which is fine, until their short-sightedness browns out an entire state in a hot summer. That's the point at which your freedom to swing your arms has crossed the line with my nose. So new home buyers are now going to pay for 50-100 years of irresponsibility from old home buyers. Things are tough all over.
TANSTAAFL, but as long as we're importing assholes here from 49 other states at 117 countries by the metric fuckton, let them pay for the upgrades they're forcing on everyone.
But given the royal sceptre and a free hand, I wouldn't mandate things; I'd just tax stupid at 500% of the going rate.
This is a 300 days/yr sunshine state.
Frankly, to hell with grid-tied solar.
Off-grid solar should be mandatory in this state, and large buildings should be required to carpet their roof space and parking lots with solar, for self-power year-around.
Earth-sheltered homes ought to be encouraged as well. They don't burn down, they cost less to heat and cool, they're quieter, and any roof strong enough to hold up a dead load of earth wouldn't fall over in an earthquake.
You want to build stick-built, in the desert, or with a wood shake roof in chaparral hills, or down by the waves at the ocean, and I'd just make your building permit 50% of the price of the land, and charge you for fire response per visit pro-rated for the annual number of calls.
After two major disasters, your property is automatically zoned as unbuildable, and gets condemned as unimproved parkland, at the going rate for unusable dirt. Then everyone could enjoy the view, and brushfires and mudslides would only be a problem for the wildlife.
If only to end hearing about the sorry SOBs whose houses in the hills burns down for the sixth time every five or ten years, and the dumbasses at the bottom who can't figure out mud slides downhill after it rains the winter after fire season.
I wouldn't force people to build with or without anything. I'd just set the pricing scale for permits geared to reward smart and harshly punish stupid. But you could be as stupid as you could afford, at Tiffany rates for the latter.
(cont.)
(cont.)
ReplyDeleteThere is an even easier way to incentivize this though.
Just deregulate power prices completely, and let the power companies charge any damn thing they want for power 24/7/365.
Want to live in a desert and run A/C 24/7? No problem. Just let energy prices rise to $200/day/household, and ROWYBS. Capitalism FTW. People would be mobbing solar companies, or the freeways back to where they came from. Problem solved.
It would also afflict the poor harder, but fuck them too. They're sucking more in welfare than they're paying in taxes in the first place. They can move back to Bumfuckistan and Hooterville, or teach their kids to pay attention in school, and major in STEM instead of Victim Studies.
The only thing we'd need power plants for at that point would be street lights and stop lights. And maybe bringing back the electric chair.
Some day when I'm emperor for a day...
But they won't do it now, because then the stupid would flee the state, and TPTB need the Goofus, Libtard, and Julio voting bloc to keep voting them back into power. If they want to penalize stupid people for being stupid in the meantime, so be it.
Aesop,
ReplyDeleteWell, like every other product sold in fUSA, the Chicoms will reap the financial benefit of THIS law. More trade deficit with the Reds as they will be the ones manufacturing your beloved solar panels.
The PRC thanks Kaleefornya. Go Mao !
Locally, there's an HVAC outfit that advertises with the slogan "you may pay off your mortgage but you'll never pay off your power bill" to sell high efficiency heat pumps. I'm betting most of their potential customers have never had that thought before.
ReplyDeleteI've never understood why people ignore the $/sq ft costs associated with heating and cooling, but a marble countertop always wins over more insulation and air infiltration control. For some reason people go nuts over investing capital which can be financed (or amortized) and blindly accept recurring unavoidable expense which never stops being a burden (biz is a little different - expense is deductible in year incurred while capital has to be amortized over time, assuming one has enough cash flow to support the expense layer, but miscalculation on that has killed off many a business). You may be able to refinance your mortgage, but unless you enjoy cold and dark the electric or gas bill is non-negotiable. Fixed rate mortgages are available so 30-year costs are entirely predictable, but I've never seen 30-year predictability on utility rates (or taxes).
Owner-controlled solar (which brings up batteries again, because grid-tied doesn't work without a functioning grid), designed modularly for expansion makes perfect sense; if I can ever find the property I want, I've got plans for something that will be really close to a Net Zero house, and should easily make Net Zero 8/12 of the time (in my climate Jan-Feb and July-August test the extremes) without any noticeable lifestyle compromises. If I can accommodate 1.5-2K gallons of extremely well insulated water in the basement, rooftop solar hot water may negate the Jan-Feb issue entirely, and I think double-wall contruction with some two-part closed cell insulation in the outer wall will make it 12/12.
Pro tip on solar, though: houses have roofs, so putting solar on roofs is the default setting, but if space permits, keeping it off-roof and more accessible is a bonus. My plans, for example, put the solar on the roof of an closely adjacent but unattached-to-the-house covered patio, making it more accessible for maintenance and any possible leaks the mounting may create won't be the crisis over the patio it would be if over Junior's bedroom.
Aesop,
ReplyDeleteI've been a builder practically my entire working life; over 30 years in the business, mostly self employed.
I've spent most of my career in regulation heavy states, and can tell you for a fact that they never happen as intended.
The first effect of mandating solar will be a drop in quality of the homes being built en masse (developments-the vast majority of new homes). Builders need to make a certain amount, and we'll cut out parts of the job to maintain a certain profit margin, or not build it. The quality of housing in developments in this country is bad enough already.
Custom homes are a very small piece of the pie, and that market will accommodate the increased cost of any mandate, although begrudgingly. I've seen second home markets almost collapse under regulatory burden however in bad economic times.
Second will be the cheapening of the systems themselves, using cheap components. And installed by cheap labour. This goes hand in glove with the cheapening of the main construction mentioned above; a new even more cynical approach to building will metastasize and will be irreversible. Just follow the course of home building quality from the second world war. It's been downhill, except in the high end market. (cont.....
....cont)
ReplyDeleteThird effect will be an environmental disaster, as under-powered systems, cheap panels and batteries head for the landfills. We already have overflowing landfills with a vast majority of it building materials. About half the homes I've remodeled in my life have been less than 15 years old, and most are in need of repair. Mandating building codes has done absolutely nothing to remediate this. Nothing.
I now live in an area where we have no building permits. All I need a permit for is a new septic or well. We don't have houses falling down all over the place, flooding, exploding, or catching fire. And if my neighbours and I have a problem we work it out as responsible human beings. I have to tell you though, the knee jerk response to just call the cops when your next door neighbours dog barks all night has been a tough habit to change. Now I call him and deal with it.
Government mandating anything in the building arena will result in effects worse than those intended. Let the free market do it.
Ned2
@Dan
ReplyDeleteCall me when they build decent panels anywhere else for less money. I'll buy 'em.
Everyone loves capitalism, until it bites them in the ass. How'd that work out for Detroit?
(And yes, you can bitch about China not having to deal with regulatory burdens, but then tell me: who's drinking that water, and sucking that air? Us, or them?)
@Ned
I have no illusions: this is the commies in the state legislature: fucking this up is what they do.
But if it was the Republicans, they'd do it different: they'd still mandate it, but just mandate that you had to buy from their approved cronies. [Try to remember that Zsa Zsa Huffington - that Huffington - was originally the stage-mom wife of the CA GOP's pick to be senator (losing predictably to either Boxer or Fineswine), and last seen ditching his wife for a tutu and his gay lover after the defeat.]
TINVOWOOT
And moving the goalposts won't work: everybody in most areas accepts some level mandatory requirements, starting with requiring running water and adequate sewage disposal.
This is a state literally soaked in sunshine, with power grid issues due to rampant influx of people more or less since 1850. The price of adding solar into a new home, when the median home price here is $400K statewide, and $600K in the county I live in, is negligible. A gold-plated solar system wouldn't even come to 10% of that, with the added benefits of zero outages, even if the grid goes to shit, or after an earthquake, and zero rate increases the entire time. Replacing and upgrading in 20 years becomes part of the regular ongoing home costs, like painting and re-roofing. Anybody can do that shoddy or quality, and they'll be the ones that reap the rewards of that choice. The marketplace, and required home inspections for sales, will drive out the fly-by-night choices over time, like it does.
Anybody who doesn't want to go solar on a new home is more than welcome to stay their happy ass somewhere else, and it won't bother me a bit.
I'd much rather they simply taxed new arrivals on entry, adjusted over time based on whether they end up being a net gain or net loss to the state economy, and simply threw a net over the illegals, but I've learned to live with disappointment.
Think this over: it's for new construction. That's primarily going to afflict the red part of the state, from I-5 to the borders. (Ain't no one in coastal Libtardia building new homes, by and large.) So whose houses, in which part of the state, is going to have power when Democrat policies crash the power grid, or a natural disaster hits (as it's bound to)? Not the royal blue hives on the coast. Their houses will be - and stay - cold and dark.
Boo frickin' hoo.
And if anyone gets pissed off about this, it'll be those buying new homes, overwhelmingly the new arrivals. So if anyone's going to get pissed about this, it'll be that demographic, again. So Sacramento has built in a way to create endless red voters, from the get-go, who'll hate nanny-state regs before they even move in.
When your enemy is making a mistake, stay out of his way.
As for grid-tied, it's the batteries. Driving me nuts because I won't finance so we're saving. We're looking at nickel-iron batteries - 30 cells at 500Ah 48v - figure 500 per cell. Then we pay the electrician because the ground mount solar we have has microinverters so that may or may not need to be changed, etc. etc. etc. I hate financing and debt on anything about my property - no mortgage, no debt, nothing. But agreed 100% on grid-tied, because it pisses me off every time the grid goes down we do too, and I look out and see my solar array sitting there. FFS... I understand WHY (we want our linesmen alive), but honestly it's frustrating.
ReplyDeleteWeirdly enough we bought for land value and we're in a 40 year old mobile that was plonked down here. They knew how to build things 40 years ago better than now. No leaks, good structural integrity... totally bizarre. The new houses built by developers are having problems 10 years after they're built. Only changes we made immediately were to replace interior walls and insulate more there and in the roof. House is fine - had it inspected and it's fine. I was shocked - we bought expecting we'd have to build immediately. Like Aesop, my husband wants a home built into the ground because earth sheltered homes are the absolute best when it comes to heat and cooling costs and energy efficiency, but that's 15 years away and will have to be financed, likely. I may be more open to that at retirement age... maybe. If this mobile keeps doing what it's doing, though, seriously. Who would think a MOBILE would be like this!? Not me. And probably not the new ones. It's like we hit the sweet spot of people giving a damn about what they manufactured.
That's neither here nor there on the mandatory debate, but again, though I would never live in an HOA (I don't think they'd care for our chickens or goats), there are certain things that require permits no matter where you are, and if solar is the way to pull this state out of the energy hole it's dug itself into, fine. Retirees will end up paying for it, as Aesop said - everything to the East of I-5 is being developed and people retire up here a lot. Elderly people are grumpy, so they're going to demand that the solar is not sub-par. I'd still rather incentives, but we had those and nobody bit. If people were paying those power bills like we were, they'd have bitten a hell of a lot more.
Now, if everyone will excuse me, we're going to be working on our van - we're converting THAT to solar (with generator backup we'll rarely use) for boondocking on short trips. When we're done with that we'll be working on our RV to covert THAT to solar. Everything solar, because Aesop is right - there is a TON of sun here. California may suck politically but it is BEAUTIFUL here, which is why I'm willing to stay and fight. I'm close to Yosemite - you show me anywhere near your homes that comes close - and understand I've been all over this country. This is worth fighting for.
Same here: dug in like a tick, and gonna fight like hell come the day.
ReplyDeleteNothing lasts forever, and TPTB in this state are going to drive it off the cliff, sure as God made little green apples.
I am a CA resident, so, one way or another, this will affect me. Good or bad, I guarantee that CA will screw it up and all the wrong (i.e., exactly as intended) people will benefit.
ReplyDeleteAesop
ReplyDeleteI was on the umbrage side of this (how dare they mandate!) but you reminded me of what happened in my home town Las Vegas a couple of decades ago. The newspapers were reporting that 3500-4000 "families" were moving into the Las Vegas/Clark County area every month. They could not build schools fast enough, and started jerking taxes and bonds up like crazy to not fall too far behind (and of course it was racist and unAmerican to have kids in temporary building classrooms). At the time I wanted the government to charge all the newcomers up front for the burdens they immediately placed on all of our (natives and long term residents) systems, streets, schools. It wasn't fair to us. This kind of has a similar effect.
Fair enough. But any thought of moving to California for us (and my wife grew up there, left for college and never returned) died decades ago. I honor your fight but we're not going to make it ours.
Rich
That's fair enough.
ReplyDeleteMy beef is with the cement-headed jackasses who cheer every bad thing happening here as though we had it coming, when it's overwhelmingly their exact toothless banjo-playing liberal kinfolk who moved here to create it, and their @$$hole senators and congressmen in their states who gave us the illegal problem as well, both by design and by malign neglect.
They're in the idiotic position of cheering the Nazis for torturing occupied France after 1940, instead of supporting the resistance behind enemy lines. As if the crocodile can be bargained with to stay away from their house.
You'd think anyone with some interest in the 55 electoral votes of a blue state would have some stake in monkeywrenching the slide into liberal hell, let alone flipping it back to the solid red it was until the 1990s, which is hardly the Stone Age, rather than watching it burn with undisguised glee.
But that'd be expecting people to have an IQ above room temperature, and not go to a house fire just to enjoy watching the blaze.
We call that sociopathy.
This is why I suspect there are more people who are anti- all government than there are who are anti- Big, Liberal government: at heart, they're just arsonists and anarchists.
And they can't understand why nobody rational has much use for them, because crazy people don't know they're crazy.
saving money, anything the government requires, the price to obtain goes vertical. this makes me think i need to get my ass in gear and get a system set up before you all drive the cost up. one thing funny about eco-nazi's they never complain about the diesel fed snowplow, fire truck, boom truck coming to save their ass at at 0 dark 30. they are fuk wits! you can have all the solar panels you want, still surrounded by 25 million ass-hats, at less than a tank of gas away, all itch'n to steal your shit. my experience, 30 years, lived in Palms, Northridge, Ventura, Sacto. majority of the red parts of that state are being developed into homes for blue voters. the other red area are being cutt up by the eco-nazi's. you can't fool me with that "it will be a red state" bullshit.
ReplyDeleteRight. Because socialism always works forever. Just ask the Soviets. Or the Venezuelans.
ReplyDeleteThat's why there's no way the People's Republik of Califrutopia falls on its ass when their financial house of cards goes boom.